Hybrid tortoises

[Baoh]

Originally Posted by anol03

I am curious, how are you supposed to care for them?
I they come from complete different climate types, they need different typ of diet, very high fiber diet for leopards and more fruits for the redfooted tortoise.

This does not really present much difficulty or conflict.

Keeping them warm to hot with decent humidity, adequate variety of foods with adequate fiber and protein, a source of clean water to drink from or wallow in, and adequate space works for them all.

I keep leopards, red foot tortoises, ivory sulcatas, Burmese stars, Burmese blacks, and yellow foot tortoises all the same way. They develop well, exhibit good health, and reproduce readily. You can see a portion of these in my photo thread for reference.

They are adapted to deal with certain extremes or nuances in their natural habitats, but there is the fraction of the environment that they derive specific benefit from and there is the fraction of the environment that they simply have become adapted to endure. If you remove the components that they simply endure in nature, but keep what they derive benefit from, they should do well. This group of beneficial pieces to care often have ranges and these ranges, when comparing across species, often have areas of overlap. If you select a reasonable middle space, you can care well for a number of seemingly different species. Hybrids fit in this same set of environmental parameters, so the middle range works just fine for them too. You can look at the differences in the extremes or you can look at the similarities in between. There are plenty of instances of both.

My hybrid actually grows more robustly than either parent species. It looks like the hybrids in this thread also display such vigor, which I really like to see.

[Marcusanthony24]

Well they are both Geochelone, I wonder which species it is closest too genetically, afterall there are traits in both species which are recessive/dominant. How would you know exactly what to feed them, redfoots like some meat in their diet, sulcata are almost strictly herbivore. Redfoots like humidity and vice versa.

[Baoh]

Redfoot tortoises and sulcata tortoises both benefit from protein in the diet (vegetable primarily and animal supplementally if you so prefer it) and ambient humidity. The burrow my animals keep is rather humid, as is the area of undergrowth a redfoot might naturally hide in. The sulcata comes across animal remains, small prey, and feces in the wild and feeds upon them as presented by good fortune, as does the redfoot.

Here is an example of an ivory sulcata raised in relatively high ambient humidity and fed a diet very high in protein.

http://www.shelledwarriors.co.uk/for...1&postcount=38

Here is an example of a hypo redfoot raised in the same conditions with the same diet.

http://www.shelledwarriors.co.uk/for...7&postcount=42

Since the supposedly extreme differences in environmental and dietary "needs" of these two species can be satisfied with a single regimen, I have no concerns over any thoughts regarding difficulties imposed by hybrids of seemingly very different backgrounds. At the microclimate level in the range of overlap for various species, a great many types of animals can thrive well in a common set of care parameters.

My direct experience with hybrids also bears out these observations regarding separate species.

[anol03]

Redfooted is not longer a geochelone, it is now called Chelonoidis carbonaria.
For me these tortoises comes from very different climate zones eat different food, if you can Cross these species you can Cross any tortoise species and keep them the same and feed them the same diet.

[Baoh]

Taxonomic classifications are shifting from anatomical and regional to genetic branching and relation as we refine our systems for analysis and categorization. The label does not really weigh in for much else besides that ability for us to refine our categories (which is a human comfort).

The temperature and moisture ranges for optima tend to have overlap. The macronutrients, when digested, are the same base components. Despite the readily observable superficial differences, there are core similarities that allow for these things. As of yet, I have seen no conflicts in the end product (when there is an end product; we are not exactly swimming in hybrids for what could be any or all of several reasons).

For me, it is all very interesting for a number of reasons. Not just as "designer" pets or experiments to gain knowledge, which are my primary reasons. I also wonder about reforestation agents or introductions to geoengineeering and terraforming types of projects. In the event of extinctions, a permanent or temporary hybrid surrogate for the ecological role in a particular niche, too. I am sure there are applications I have yet to conceive of.

I still wish I could get a hold of a female pardalis x carbonaria.

[anol03]

I think that there is a very good reason why you have different guidelines and books for keeping redfoots and leopards.
How do you do with fiber for example, leopards and sulcatas eat tons of fibers and have adepted to that diet over "some time".

This comes from TT homepage.
"A diet that would prove disastrous to a Leopard tortoise is likely to prove optimal for a Red-foot or Yellow-foot tortoise. For the same reason, attempting to sustain a Red-foot tortoise on a diet of mixed grasses would not be advisable; this species is ill equipped to effectively metabolise large quantities of silica-rich grass. "

Have a look on the natural habitat of redfooted tortoise.
http://www.ich-halte-koehlerschildkr..._k_english.htm
Dont think a leopard is that well adepted to this climate.

Some info and natural enviroment pictures of the leopard tortise.
http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/leopards.htm

[FLINTUS]

Without keeping leopards I can't really comment on that side but do leopards really have 85-90% relative humidity in their natural environment. They are often exposed to very high basking temps I believe, where as reds like high ambient temps more. Do leopards eat 70% fruit during rainy season and 40% during dry? I just feel doing something like this is corrupting pure lines-bare in mind some people are only breeding red foots from the same country- and that by doing this we are headin down a slippery slope as in domesticating tortoises like what happened with the dog family.

[alley cat]

Originally Posted by FLINTUS

I just feel doing something like this is corrupting pure lines-bare in mind some people are only breeding red foots from the same country- and that by doing this we are headin down a slippery slope as in domesticating tortoises like what happened with the dog family.

I was thinking the same thing, it is all sounding very like the Cockapoo, Jug, Springador etc route, mix them all up, no pedigree papers to worry about, then sell them for more than a pure breed!

[FLINTUS]

Originally Posted by alley cat

I was thinking the same thing, it is all sounding very like the Cockapoo, Jug, Springador etc route, mix them all up, no pedigree papers to worry about, then sell them for more than a pure breed!

Yep, my point exactly but to be fair nearly all domestic dog breeds are mixes and crosses of other breeds over time.

[Baoh]

Originally Posted by anol03

I think that there is a very good reason why you have different guidelines and books for keeping redfoots and leopards.
How do you do with fiber for example, leopards and sulcatas eat tons of fibers and have adepted to that diet over "some time".

This comes from TT homepage.
"A diet that would prove disastrous to a Leopard tortoise is likely to prove optimal for a Red-foot or Yellow-foot tortoise. For the same reason, attempting to sustain a Red-foot tortoise on a diet of mixed grasses would not be advisable; this species is ill equipped to effectively metabolise large quantities of silica-rich grass. "

Have a look on the natural habitat of redfooted tortoise.
http://www.ich-halte-koehlerschildkr..._k_english.htm
Dont think a leopard is that well adepted to this climate.

Some info and natural enviroment pictures of the leopard tortise.
http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/leopards.htm

I would be interested to read the anatomical or physiological basis for these claims. I see assertions galore, but not evidence for support (and especially not from a peer-reviewed source, although I would accept something verifiable regardless of peer-reviewed status).