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Old 07-07-2015, 11:18 PM   #11
vikki
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Daryn a thread on a well known .org forum titled "2015 Growth Experiment" may interest you as this is what is being used instead of bulbs - I think your tortoises are mainly outside which will be different but still quite an interesting read.
Not sure if I am allowed to directly refer to other forums?
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Old 08-07-2015, 12:24 AM   #12
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My experience is only with hermanns and I'm quite certain that contraptions of this sort are not necessary for them for UK keepers.

Certainly some tortoise species do need more humidity than you get over an open table in a typical UK home. Humidity levels of 70%+ are difficult to achieve over an open area and some forest species have those requirements.

Having said that, the humidity debate isn't resolved even for Mediterranean species. For a while we were encouraged to think that really small mediterranean tortoises in the wild lived at the bottom of piles of vegetation and various secret places where there was loads of humidity. Andy Highfield debunked that idea totally with field research and his view is that the small ones in reality spend their time in places with similar humidity to the larger ones. I still don't know what to think in that respect because for years there was a view that smaller tortoises had this need for greater humidity.


One thing that seems to have been right all along is that for the Mediterranean species at least, they do better outside. If the weather and conditions are at all tolerable, get them outside. Once out there, they know better than we can how to make the best of it. As a keeper I'm nowadays seeing myself as being someone who intervenes to enable them to be outside as much as possible.
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Old 08-07-2015, 10:18 AM   #13
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I believe that the oldest living torts in the uk are those that have lived outside most of their lives with many fending for themselves, the ones that seem to have more problems are those which are those which are kept as far away from natural as possible. I'm a great believer in any animal having the chance to build up its natural resistancys and it can only do that if exposed to the world around it, yes we can keep them artificially and in this country we do have to offer some help due to the climate but there are some keepers who seem to keep animals with almost a scientific view which is fine but I don't believe we can better what nature intended and the animals mental state is as important as its health.
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Old 08-07-2015, 10:59 AM   #14
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I agree - you see some amazing looking (lovely smooth shells etc) old tortoises that seem to have basically lived in the garden all of their lives. I know that it also isn't necessarily ideal to leave them to fend for themselves to the extent that some do and lots of tortoises died from this but definitely those that have adapted to it look amazing - possibly a case of survival of the fittest?!
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Old 08-07-2015, 12:16 PM   #15
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Vikki one idea is that those tortoises all formed their shape in the natural environment because they were adults when they were collected. This would suggest that their smooth growth has nothing to do with the conditions they have expereinced here in the UK.

Under natural conditions, those species which 'ought' to have smooth shells usually grow in that way, but not always. 'Lumpy' tortoises have also been found in the wild.

I don't think there is any real adaptation with tortoises that were brought to the UK. I've changed my mind totally about that and I don't think any adaptation happens . Some of those 'garden tortoises' survived because they were tough and resilient creatures who had spent long periods of time developing normally in their countries of origin. They made the best of the conditions they were given and for some of them life continued.
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Old 08-07-2015, 03:01 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozric Jonathan View Post
One thing that seems to have been right all along is that for the Mediterranean species at least, they do better outside. If the weather and conditions are at all tolerable, get them outside. Once out there, they know better than we can how to make the best of it. As a keeper I'm nowadays seeing myself as being someone who intervenes to enable them to be outside as much as possible.
I think I am now of the same mindset. My 11 month old Hermann has been outside 24/7 without additional heat or light (just a coldframe/climate frame) since mid May and he seems to be thriving. Steadily gaining weight, smooth growth, bright eyes and on the few times I've handled him he has struggled strongly to get back in his enclosure.
The lowest overnight temp has been 7 degrees and the highest daytime up in the 30's. It has been intersesting to take carapace temp. measurements with the IR thermometer which have given me much reassurance.
I have only intervened a couple of times and brought him inside when we've encountered those torrential downpours and that's only because he does insist on spending his nights in scrapes under plants rather than go inside his shelter. To be honest he would've probably rather been out in it
I can perhaps see the point of those closed chambers for tropical species in colder areas but personally I think Med. keepers (in the UK, at least) need not concern themselves with them.
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Old 08-07-2015, 03:58 PM   #17
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I agree with you Keith - my two are definitely happier outside. I just find all the different opinions and the thinking behind them very interesting but for me for now it will definitely be outdoors as much as possible then table when needed indoors. I am however interested in how it will work not using basking lights especially for those times indoors however the person doing this in America is using a viv type set up and guess it would probably only work indoors with that because you couldn't do it with an open top table as the heat from panel/tubular heaters would rise too quickly to keep temps up and benefit the tortoise - hmmmm maybe that idea wont work for me!!
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Old 09-07-2015, 12:58 PM   #18
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Keith I think your experience shows that with a well-thought out enclosure and some half decent weather we don't need to be constantly burning electricity to maintain hermanns outdoors in the summer months.

If Gerry wasn't active and feeding you would notice and by taking his temperature you can be sure that he is able to digest his meals.

I always say that the 'rules' about keeping tortoises indoors such as the 32C basking spot and the 20C ambient temperature just do not apply at all outside. But of course just plonking a mediterranean tortoise outside in the UK won't work.
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Old 09-07-2015, 02:24 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Ozric Jonathan View Post
Keith I think your experience shows that with a well-thought out enclosure and some half decent weather we don't need to be constantly burning electricity to maintain hermanns outdoors in the summer months.

If Gerry wasn't active and feeding you would notice and by taking his temperature you can be sure that he is able to digest his meals.

I always say that the 'rules' about keeping tortoises indoors such as the 32C basking spot and the 20C ambient temperature just do not apply at all outside. But of course just plonking a mediterranean tortoise outside in the UK won't work.
I'm very lucky in that I live in a sheltered valley which seems to miss a lot of inclement weather and the enclosure is exposed to the sun for about 9 hours a day at this time of year..It's worth pointing out that my experience is in it's infancy, but so far I have seen no reason to deviate from the current husbandry...Your point about just plonking a Med. Tortoise outside is valid, hopefully the days of the "Garden Tortoise" are long gone.

With regard to the 32c basking, 20c ambient 'rules'. I agree, they don't seem to apply outside because nature doesn't really follow rules, which leads me to hypothesise the possibility that they may not apply inside. I am of course playing devils advocate here, but with the tortoises known ability to raise it's temperature way above it's heat source, wouldn't it be viable to have a lower temp. with the tortoise just basking for a longer period?..I'd be interested to hear experienced keepers views.
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Old 09-07-2015, 10:07 PM   #20
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Daryn a thread on a well known .org forum titled "2015 Growth Experiment" may interest you as this is what is being used instead of bulbs - I think your tortoises are mainly outside which will be different but still quite an interesting read.
Not sure if I am allowed to directly refer to other forums?
Could you send me a pm with the link please, Im not sure of the rules regarding giving out links on the main forum either although I think in cases like these topics it might be allowed.
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