Sick Kleinmann's - vet advice needed

[Isis]

I have two beautiful Kleinmann's (Egyptian) tortoises, rescued from a 'pet' trader in Cairo where I live.

I've had them for six months and the larger of the two, Isis, had been unwell from the beginning, refusing to eat.

After several weeks of syringe feeding he happily ate on his own and is a real inquisitive character.

We built a tortoise table for them with sand, a hide box, water dish, stones and shells. We feed them on locally picked weeds and flowers, supplemented with dark leafy greens and occassional cucumber as a treat. They get to forage outside in the gardens most days and soak up the Egyptian sunshine.

For the last week, Isis has been sleeping with legs and head stretched out on the sand, but still eating and drinking normally (and they get daily baths). He has also been lounging in the water bowl most of the day (the weather here got incredibly hot recently - 48 deg).

Yesterday I noticed that his neck had become very fluid filled - edema. He also seems unable to support his weight on his legs, but still has the will to move, and half 'swims' across the floor.

He hasn't eaten today or yesterday and has refused his favourite food - cucumber. His eyes are clear and bright but he is very lethargic and wants to rest his head on the ground. He has passed milky urates yesterday in his water bowl - could there be an issue with consuming this again?

The problem I have is that we cannot find an experienced tortoise vet here - and the ones we have contacted have been quite upfront and said they really wouldn't know what was wrong, and would rely on online sources to treat him. I've tried everything I can think of, even the few suggested vets listed online, - even the zoo - yet they tell me they are not confident in treating exotics.

I have read that this could be symptomatic of numerous illnesses, including renal problems - so where on earth do I begin?

If there is a vet out there reading, or anyone who has experienced this and could offer some reasonable advice I'd be most grateful.

Incidentally, my other tort, Ra, is thriving, great appetite and very active. Should I quarantine the sick tort for now?

Thank you

[egyptiandan64]

Welcome to the forum

Just wish it was under better circumstances It would be great if you could post pictures of your sick Egyptian tortoise, as it would help us figure out whats going on. The best thing to do would be to go to a vet and get an x-ray done. This can rule out a bladder stone or being egg bound and any vet can do an x-ray.
Yes it would be good to seperate your 2 Egyptians. Also I'd change the substrate in your enclosure. It's very hard to walk on sand, so soil would be a better choice for a substrate.

Danny

[Laraine]

2 vets in Cairo,
Dr Amir (recommended on the TT site)
http://www.ourpetclinic.info/center/

Dr. Farouk Baghat
PDSA Animal Hospital Lufthansa and G.E. Veterinary Commissioner
Cairo, Egypt
Tel: 822294 or 2914985

[Isis]

Thank you Dan I've been giving Isis constant baths in the hope that he would pass some of this water. Within the last hour the oedema has greatly reduced, (although without any noticeable urination in the water) leaving empty skin. It was previously like a rubber ring or large double chin, preventing him from retracting into his shell.

He is still very very lethargic and struggles to stand - the front legs are noticeable weaker than the back.

I'll take your advice and get an xray, although being egg bound won't be an issue - this is a definite male (named Isis before we realised).

I've taken a few pictures right now, please let me know what you think.

As far as the substrate goes, I was following the Tortoise Trust advice for a 'dry, sandy substrate', although I can see the issues with walking through sand. Soil will be a challenge to find, most plants are even bought ina potted sand mixture. Right now (after calling a plant shop and failing) I can't think where I could get some from. Is there anything you can suggest that I could add to the sand to make it more firm for them?

As previously said, they get to run outside (and run they do, they are very quick, almost stumbling over their own legs to run about), and are usually very active in their enclosure; climbing rocks and in and out of the water bowl.

Isis has very long legs and usually walks very tall on them and looks quite comical, so to see him on his belly shuffling along is really distressing, particularly as it has happened literally overnight.

I realise a vet is the best course of action, but I don't want to do more harm than good with a vet that really is clueless about the needs of a tortoise.

I also called the vets you found Larraine and Dr Farouk said the same to me - they were my first port of call as obviously I was trying to find an experienced vet. They don't do exotic pets (and by exotic they mean anything that's not a cat or dog) and perhaps the Tortoise Trust site needs to be updated. Dr Amir doesn't answer...

[egyptiandan64]

Can you get crushed oyster shells? We use crushed oyster shells for feeding chickens to make sure they get enough calcium for egg production. There are a few Egyptian keepers in the states that use crushed oyster shell for a substrate.
If you can't find that, you might be able to get what I use which is shredded aspen bedding which is used for small mammals and snakes. I've been using it for almost 20 years and it's a great substrate.
If you can't find either of those 2, you might be able to find powdered clay that you can mix with your sand. The powdered clay mixed with the sand should pack down hard and a bit of water every other day should keep it tightly packed.

Danny

[Isis]

[Isis]

[Laraine]

Have just looked at the website and the clinic for Dr Amir is not open on a Sunday unfortunately, there is a number for sms messages 002 - 010 345 8080 ( SMS only)

http://ourpetclinic.info/center/inde...id=2&Itemid=56

[Isis]

Hi Laraine, thank you. I first contacted this vet 6 months ago when Isis wasn't eating. i called, emailed, left voice messages and sent sms - nothing. I have done the same this time (calling yesterday and today) still nothing yet, but plan to try again tomorrow.

I have attempted to upload some pictures...I hope they appear :S

Danny, thanks for the tips, I have a feeling both of those substrates will be impossible to find, but i'm hoping I'll have better luck with the clay powder. Do you think the sand may in some way be contributing to my tortoises ill health right now?

Thank you both so much for taking the time to respond, I just hope I manage to resolve this quickly...

[Isis]

Update: after another bath Isis has passed some very pale green, crystal clear liquid urine. No urates, nothing cloudy or milky. So a quick online search throws up Hexamita (although it does not smell, nor is it concentrated), or liver disease.

I am no vet, but maybe these are some clues to some kind person reading until I can try again tomorrow with the only vet that may have some tortoise knowledge here.