Care for the Wild International

[linda.t]

do you really think that tesco care what a we think.
because i don't think they do all they care about is making a profit and nothing else.

[EJ]

No. Many tortoise keepers are what are called the lunatic fringe. There are some that approach this in a reasonable fashion... they will get a look and actually might have an influence.

If there is a reasonable response or action... people are more inclined to listen.

I don't see anything wrong with what TESCO is doing. I also don't see anything wrong with a reasonable objection. Key point... reasonable. Even though I don't agree with some of the positions to this topic I have the greatest admiration for the way some of the position in this case has been expressed.

Originally Posted by linda.t

do you really think that tesco care what a we think.
because i don't think they do all they care about is making a profit and nothing else.

[Geomyda]

Originally Posted by linda.t

do you really think that tesco care what a we think.
because i don't think they do all they care about is making a profit and nothing else.

To be honest, I am sure that Tesco wish this whole subject would drift into indifference! Their position in the Chinese SUPER market opportunity, is one of a global player seeking to build a market share in what is potentially the biggest consumer growth market in the next decade or more. To be frank, the money they have made, and possibly will make in the next few years of selling live turtles in China, is "no hill of beans"!
What I think they are currently afraid of, is the humiliation of climbing down on marketing a product they inherited, when they bought into the "China" operation.
What we need to do, is to reinforce the message that they invested in China with UK money! Their successful business model is based on listening to these very savy and dare I say it sophisticated customers, and the crass defence, in their argument that they are serving a cultural requirement is inexcusable. If this were the case, then oh so many offerrings would be served up in stores across the world. Which of course, they are not!
I am afraid that continued pressure, and the value of the UK £ is the only thing that will encourage them to take a lead on their competitors in this market, and genuinely make a change for the better.
EVERY LADLE HELPS

[EJ]

There's one arrogant point... for the better. Who's 'better'... yours... or theirs.

Let's look at basic history. The Chinese have been around for how long... the rest... for how long. We are going to tell them how to do it right?

How much technology have we stolen from them.

I'm getting deep here... but think about what I'm saying.

Their practices are uncivilized... according to who.

It's ironic how often judgement comes into play in this hobby. I think some need to step back and look at the proverbial big picture.

Originally Posted by Geomyda

To be honest, I am sure that Tesco wish this whole subject would drift into indifference! Their position in the Chinese SUPER market opportunity, is one of a global player seeking to build a market share in what is potentially the biggest consumer growth market in the next decade or more. To be frank, the money they have made, and possibly will make in the next few years of selling live turtles in China, is "no hill of beans"!
What I think they are currently afraid of, is the humiliation of climbing down on marketing a product they inherited, when they bought into the "China" operation.
What we need to do, is to reinforce the message that they invested in China with UK money! Their successful business model is based on listening to these very savy and dare I say it sophisticated customers, and the crass defence, in their argument that they are serving a cultural requirement is inexcusable. If this were the case, then oh so many offerrings would be served up in stores across the world. Which of course, they are not!
I am afraid that continued pressure, and the value of the UK £ is the only thing that will encourage them to take a lead on their competitors in this market, and genuinely make a change for the better.
EVERY LADLE HELPS

[Geomyda]

Originally Posted by EJ

There's one arrogant point... for the better. Who's 'better'... yours... or theirs.

Let's look at basic history. The Chinese have been around for how long... the rest... for how long. We are going to tell them how to do it right?

How much technology have we stolen from them.

I'm getting deep here... but think about what I'm saying.

Their practices are uncivilized... according to who.

It's ironic how often judgement comes into play in this hobby. I think some need to step back and look at the proverbial big picture.

I do not believe anyone is arguing against the fact, that the current consumption by China is bringing a whole vertebrate group (CHELONIA) to the verge of extinction. If that is the accepted? Then I forcefully argue that it is BETTER to demonstrate this is a travesty of human kind. The fact of the matter is the Chelonia predate Human form by over 200 million years, not billions of years as some would have us believe. However, in the BIG picture, this does give them a priority and respect that is deserved!!
The consumption of Turtle/Tortoise Flesh in China has esculated exponentially, in the last decade or so, and this mirrors the industrialisation, and dare I say it Westernisatiion, of their economy. From a barter economy to a cash economy in little under one generation. These changes require cultural attitudes to change!
Remember, in your country, you fought a civil war on the back of slavery!
Whilst I respect culture, and history,in any Civilisation, the current pillaging of a vertebrate group which gives its name to this Web forum is, not acceptable.

[EJ]

I come back to my original point...so... we know better than them.
Until this discussion... I didnt thnk much about it.

I just thought... they're fn' turtles. Do you see the point.

I'm sad to say that not many people see beyond the point.

yea... we know better than them.

bottom line... we have too much time and money.

Yea... how do I feed my family and kids tomorrow? Silly question.

We should be totally greatful for the causes we are allowed to take up. We should also think about the cultures we force ourselves on...

Originally Posted by Geomyda

I do not believe anyone is arguing against the fact, that the current consumption by China is bringing a whole vertebrate group (CHELONIA) to the verge of extinction. If that is the accepted? Then I forcefully argue that it is BETTER to demonstrate this is a travesty of human kind. The fact of the matter is the Chelonia predate Human form by over 200 million years, not billions of years as some would have us believe. However, in the BIG picture, this does give them a priority and respect that is deserved!!
The consumption of Turtle/Tortoise Flesh in China has esculated exponentially, in the last decade or so, and this mirrors the industrialisation, and dare I say it Westernisatiion, of their economy. From a barter economy to a cash economy in little under one generation. These changes require cultural attitudes to change!
Remember, in your country, you fought a civil war on the back of slavery!
Whilst I respect culture, and history,in any Civilisation, the current pillaging of a vertebrate group which gives its name to this Web forum is, not acceptable.

[EJ]

Ya know... it just occued to me... yea I'm slow... imposing our values on the cultures of others.

We've developed the luxury...

Think about it.

[Geomyda]

Originally Posted by EJ

I come back to my original point...so... we know better than them.
Until this discussion... I didnt thnk much about it.

I just thought... they're fn' turtles. Do you see the point.

I'm sad to say that not many people see beyond the point.

yea... we know better than them.

bottom line... we have too much time and money.

Yea... how do I feed my family and kids tomorrow? Silly question.

We should be totally greatful for the causes we are allowed to take up. We should also think about the cultures we force ourselves on...

If we really want to drill down on culture, the Buddhist tradition, which has strong links in China believe in respect for all living things, and some of the earliest art forms seen in China, depict the earth as a "mother Turtle", It's carapace representing the mantle (the Earth) that Man is supported by.
This representation, is also seen in other classic Civilisations, including the one in North America- predating European occupation by a few thousands of years. If you think about it this early American Civilisation is believed to have migrated across the Bearing land bridge from what we now call CHINA!
In Human history, cultures do develop and change, and some of the influences are values, imported and indeed exported across the World. Perhaps, it might be considered hypocritical that we in the West dictate to others that they should not "Slash and Burn" their Forests, hunt their Whales, respect Human rights, when we have been guilty of so much exploitation, in our own environments.
If we do nothing, but educate and enlighten from the experiences of our past, I believe that we are all on a very short road to oblivion!
From cultures across the world we see evidence of the ultimate price of over consumption, the Maya, in Mexico? and probably most graphically, the inhabitants of Easter island, in the South Pacific??
I am afraid, that to do nothing, because of respect for cultural difference is to ignore the consequences of over consumption!
I would ask that all those reading these threads, take time to look at the published literature, such as the recent traffic.org document. Having done so, consider the price of doing or saying NOTHING?

[Geomyda]

A presentation has been made to the Govenor of the State of Florida, by FloridaTurtle experts Working group, and IUCN/SSC, Tortoise and Freshwater Turtle specialist group;
Extreme concern over the "overfishing" of Florida's Wild Softshell turtle (Apalone ferox), which is supplying the Chinese food markets.

Indeed, in a recent document prepared for Tesco by the Shanghai Ocean University. The Cover picture of a Florida Softshell Turtle (Apalone Ferox) has been used, and mis-identified as a Chinese Softshell Turtle (Pelodiscus sinensis). If Chinese scientists struggle to tell the difference, it begs the question what their farmers and shop worker are actually farming and selling!!
In recent video images linked to this site, evidence of very large Softshell turles, obviously not (Pelodiscus sinensis), are shown being offloaded from refrigerated lorries in a Chinese Turtle wholesaler.

This latest reports further proves that Wild populations are being pillaged to fuel this unsustianable trade.

Let us make demand for at least a moratorium on the sale of Live Turtles in this food trade until a proper scientific study is produced, and published.
Any such study needs to be properly peer reviewed and accepted by a body of international experts?

[EJ]

As pointed out by the paper article I attached... how would you propose a population census be taken in the case of Softshells... they occur in almost every body of water in the southern US with ranges extending into the Western states where unwanted pets a being released. How do you control something that you have no idea as to the numbers.

Originally Posted by Geomyda

A presentation has been made to the Govenor of the State of Florida, by FloridaTurtle experts Working group, and IUCN/SSC, Tortoise and Freshwater Turtle specialist group;
Extreme concern over the "overfishing" of Florida's Wild Softshell turtle (Apalone ferox), which is supplying the Chinese food markets.

Indeed, in a recent document prepared for Tesco by the Shanghai Ocean University. The Cover picture of a Florida Softshell Turtle (Apalone Ferox) has been used, and mis-identified as a Chinese Softshell Turtle (Pelodiscus sinensis). If Chinese scientists struggle to tell the difference, it begs the question what their farmers and shop worker are actually farming and selling!!
In recent video images linked to this site, evidence of very large Softshell turles, obviously not (Pelodiscus sinensis), are shown being offloaded from refrigerated lorries in a Chinese Turtle wholesaler.

This latest reports further proves that Wild populations are being pillaged to fuel this unsustianable trade.

Let us make demand for at least a moratorium on the sale of Live Turtles in this food trade until a proper scientific study is produced, and published.
Any such study needs to be properly peer reviewed and accepted by a body of international experts?