Thread to discuss THE hibernating issue

[TortBabe]

Bindi, Paul and Mette, this is my feeling also. Have thought about hibernation all year and researched and researched and these are the conclusions I have come to myself.
Who knows if its right or wrong? Good luck everyone whatever you decide to do, overwinter or hibernate

[pagan queen]

After reading all of this thread I am still going to overwinter my torts. The oldest one because I have only had him back from his 5 year adventure in the wilds of my garden since June and want to make sure everything is OK with him and spend some quality time with him. The little one is only 4 months old so I don't want to even contemplate it.

In the future if I do ever hibernate I will just leave them in my garden in a secure animal proof enclosure. Herbie survived for 5 years out there even in last years cold winter, so I think they know best.

Thank you all for your input, it has been very interesting and all very civil, I and many others have gained a lot of valuable information.

[Pussygalore]

you're tort that survived by itself must have found the ideal place to hibernate, most if just left in the average garden wouldn't be so lucky. The area could be flooded/to wet, to shallow so allowing the frost to penetrate, if you think of the difference in our winters to the ones in the med it was a very lucky tort to survive without help, torts aren't found naturally in our country for a very good reason! most of them would die. The people that do use a natural hibernation usually have a greenhouse or similar with enough depth of soil and often heating as a back up, I'm sorry but I do think that unless you know exactley wear your tort slept you'd be taking a very big risk especially if he doesn't have the choice to find that same spot.

[EJ]

There are quite a few keepers including myself here in the states who are working on it... only time will tell. Most of those keepers I know also work on a situational basis to where there is not a single one way or the other.

Hibernation/brumation... sometimes I do and sometimes I don't.
Feeding... whatever... sometimes I do and sometimes I don't.

You really don't know what is best until you try and either fail or succeed. If you don't try... you don't know.

Most of the zoos the world over have been using a pelleted diet for well over 30 years. I can't imagine how many Galapagos tortoises have been head started on Mazuri... That's probably the closest your going to get to a long term study because the diet was developed specificly for them.

...only time will tell... for those who try.

Originally Posted by Bindi

Another thing to consider, is how many tort keepers have raised torts from hatchlings, for 20-30 years or so plus that have overwintered them all their lives.
Feeding them plenty of weeds/ pellets/ salad stuffs all the year through, and how are those torts doing now?

Does anyone know of any such torts?

Does it affect their health; their livers, kidneys, their shells?

I'm not saying I know any of these answers, I would just be very interested to see any such tort and hear anyone's thoughts on this

[EJ]

Please don't loose sight of the point... it is not a question of right or wrong but is it necessary or not. Natural history provides a great deal of evidence to support that brumation is not a necessary part of a tortoises biology to ensure survival in captivity.

Originally Posted by TortBabe

Bindi, Paul and Mette, this is my feeling also. Have thought about hibernation all year and researched and researched and these are the conclusions I have come to myself.
Who knows if its right or wrong? Good luck everyone whatever you decide to do, overwinter or hibernate

[EJ]

This would only be the case for the keeper that does not understand the mechanisms involved in brumation.

Talk to the experienced keeper who has brumated their tortoises over many years... you will always find a distinct pattern to those who do this successfully.

Originally Posted by Pussygalore

you're tort that survived by itself must have found the ideal place to hibernate, most if just left in the average garden wouldn't be so lucky. The area could be flooded/to wet, to shallow so allowing the frost to penetrate, if you think of the difference in our winters to the ones in the med it was a very lucky tort to survive without help, torts aren't found naturally in our country for a very good reason! most of them would die. The people that do use a natural hibernation usually have a greenhouse or similar with enough depth of soil and often heating as a back up, I'm sorry but I do think that unless you know exactley wear your tort slept you'd be taking a very big risk especially if he doesn't have the choice to find that same spot.

[TortBabe]

Originally Posted by EJ

Please don't loose sight of the point... it is not a question of right or wrong but is it necessary or not. Natural history provides a great deal of evidence to support that brumation is not a necessary part of a tortoises biology to ensure survival in captivity.

I do see your point

[EJ]

Thanks... it's a really important one because there is no 'right' or 'wrong' response to brumating or not.

Originally Posted by TortBabe

I do see your point

[Bindi]

Originally Posted by EJ

There are quite a few keepers including myself here in the states who are working on it... only time will tell. Most of those keepers I know also work on a situational basis to where there is not a single one way or the other.

Hibernation/brumation... sometimes I do and sometimes I don't.
Feeding... whatever... sometimes I do and sometimes I don't.

You really don't know what is best until you try and either fail or succeed. If you don't try... you don't know.

Most of the zoos the world over have been using a pelleted diet for well over 30 years. I can't imagine how many Galapagos tortoises have been head started on Mazuri... That's probably the closest your going to get to a long term study because the diet was developed specificly for them.

...only time will tell... for those who try.

Have you got any torts at the moment Ed, that would ordinarily hibernate in their own range, that you don't /haven't hibernated for a number of years? Like from a hatchling? Not sure if that's very clear...

[EJ]

Yes but I've only had them a year so far. They are Marginateds and Hermanns that have never been hibernated and they are roughly 6 inches + SCL.

I also have some Russians that I tried to hibernate in Southern California with disasterous results. I brought them indoors... about 10 years ago... and they are thriving.

The Hermanns and Marginateds will not be hibernated until they are breeding size.

Again... time will tell.

Originally Posted by Bindi

Have you got any torts at the moment Ed, that would ordinarily hibernate in their own range, that you don't /haven't hibernated for a number of years? Like from a hatchling? Not sure if that's very clear...