how much protein?

[Kirkie]

Thats a nice reference library you have

Important on the vetter quote is "dry matter values".

If you have a leaf weighing 100 grams of which 10 grams is protein, protein constitutes 10% of the leaf. If the leaf is 50% water and this is removed the "dry matter" remnants weigh 50 grams. There is still 10 grams of protein but this now constitutes 20% of the plant matter though the physical amount in the leaf remains the same.

[pagan queen]

Ok, so based on that, the 17% protein in the parrot food "Kaytee" is fine, therefore the parrot food is OK to feed to torts too, as we have already established that it's basically the same as tort pellets?

[Kirkie]

Actually, a percentage is of less value here than a calculation of protein requirement in grams per 100 grams of tortoise per day.

[pagan queen]

I had no idea it was such an emotive subject until I posted the thread today.

I find it odd that I know torts shouldn't have too much protein but don't know how much is too much and that we all just take it as "law".
I'm afraid I have a very inquisitive mind and need to know the "why" about everything. I'm not one to follow blindly.

What kinds of proteins should torts eat and how much, is a pretty good place to start. I take it they eat vegetable protein but they must come across other kinds even in the garden situation. Bugs, the odd dead baby bird that falls from the nest, broken eggs that are dropped from nests. I know from watching Herbie, he will sniff everything he comes across and often samples it. He was caught eating a fresh dog poop in the summer and there must be protein in that. I am a great believer in animals knowing what they need in their diet. I have seen how torts will go mad for a certain weed for days and then turn their nose up the next day and eat something they have refused to eat before.
Nature is a wonderful thing. Take the pregnant woman who wouldn't dream of eating a lump of coal normally but will sit happily munching away. There must be something to say about instinct.

[Kirkie]

Originally Posted by pagan queen

Ok, so based on that, the 17% protein in the parrot food "Kaytee" is fine, therefore the parrot food is OK to feed to torts too, as we have already established that it's basically the same as tort pellets?

Hi PQ,

I can see where this thread is going to lead to so I'm bailing out now but for the record most feeder plants a tortoise eats will constitute between 5 and 9% protein when fresh, its a diet that relies on carbohydrates for fuel. It's the effect of doubling that protein content to 18% that need thought. Protein is a building block, so I'd imagine it would increase the rate of growth of the tortoise. It's how you manage that growth that is key. I've got no experience in doing that, sorry.

Protein, is just protein to a tortoise, regardless of origin. Those slugs and snails tortoises eat are just a source of protein to them, its not turned down because its not of vegetable origin.

Jeronimo.......

[EJ]

this one is actually humorous.

Originally Posted by Helen M

Now you've done it! Opened a huge can of worms there!



Helen xx

[Kirkie]

Alright, one more. The eating of animal protein is opportunistic. Tortoises encounter them occasionally and in a harsh environment its a bonus.

[EJ]

Unfortunately the vets rely on popular litterature when they are not versed in the topic they are writing. Some will be biased in one direction or another. (I need to write more). btw... compare the current citation with the first edition of the BSAVA, Manual of Reptiles... which seems to have been expanded to include Exotic animals in general. You will notice an increase and a change of information... which is hopefully expected as new information comes to light.

Little side note... from the first edition... 'Sugar-free breakfast cereals are an excellent supplement...' Things change.

Relying on studies of animals in the wild do give us insight but it does not give us answers in this case. There are way too many variables at play and the samples that are taken to produce the numbers reported are way too limited. Couple this with the frequency of the samples taken you will get very limited useful information.

So far we've established that we don't know what is too much within a specific range let alone a single number.

I noticed a specific number/range for wet plant matter. How is that measured? Was a specific amount calculated and alowing the tortoise to consume an amout with the remainder being subtracted?

Originally Posted by skildpadde

Really should be getting on with something else, but couldn't resist
Quick blitz of my available books came up with the following on the subject:...

It's not very clear, is it?

[skildpadde]

Originally Posted by EJ

Unfortunately the vets rely on popular litterature when they are not versed in the topic they are writing. Some will be biased in one direction or another. (I need to write more). btw... compare the current citation with the first edition of the BSAVA, Manual of Reptiles... which seems to have been expanded to include Exotic animals in general. You will notice an increase and a change of information... which is hopefully expected as new information comes to light.

Little side note... from the first edition... 'Sugar-free breakfast cereals are an excellent supplement...' Things change.

Relying on studies of animals in the wild do give us insight but it does not give us answers in this case. There are way too many variables at play and the samples that are taken to produce the numbers reported are way too limited. Couple this with the frequency of the samples taken you will get very limited useful information.

So far we've established that we don't know what is too much within a specific range let alone a single number.

I noticed a specific number/range for wet plant matter. How is that measured? Was a specific amount calculated and alowing the tortoise to consume an amout with the remainder being subtracted?

Ed, I completely agree that the usefulness of these quotes is extremely limited, but it was all I could find in a hurry. Would really like to see any references you may have.

[Kirkie]

Originally Posted by EJ

I noticed a specific number/range for wet plant matter. How is that measured? Was a specific amount calculated and alowing the tortoise to consume an amout with the remainder being subtracted?

Would it not be..

Take 100 grams of "wet" matter, extract the water content (lets say 50 grams, 50% of the whole, for ease). Calculate the protein content of the remainder (lets say 10 grams, 20% of the remaining 50 grams of dry matter). Factor back in the 50 grams of water lost from the 100 gram starting point and your 10 grams of protein becomes a percentage of 100 grams again, 10% of the original wet matter.

Dandelion greens 2.7% protein content I've just worked out from data on one nutrition website! You cannot trust the internet.