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Old 12-07-2013, 12:57 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by trusty View Post
I do soak her and today I noticed she had gone and sat in her water bowl,, It stays quite damp under the covered part,, I did have it all open and was spraying it ALOT but now I have covered half of it I have noticed that end is staying damper longer... I am going to put some sphagnum moss in that end too.. OR should I put that under her day basking lamp??
If you put moss under the basking lamp it will just dry out defeating the object of having a damp substrate so keep the hide area with the damp moss and try to keep the general area from getting too dry as humidity appears to be the key to success with baby leopards and the prevention of pyramiding.
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Old 12-07-2013, 02:32 PM   #12
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If you put moss under the basking lamp it will just dry out defeating the object of having a damp substrate so keep the hide area with the damp moss and try to keep the general area from getting too dry as humidity appears to be the key to success with baby leopards and the prevention of pyramiding.
YES I did think that would happen after I said it.... I will put the moss in her hide and hope she starts to go in it which she has not yet..... She has wandered over and sat in her water again,,, obviousley its her cold drinking water is it ok that she gets in it?? Not that I can stop her.. and she has also wandered over and pulled out the plantain that i put in the soil.....but has not yet been in her hide,,,, her hide is under the half cover so tends to stay quite damp under there!
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Old 13-07-2013, 03:33 PM   #13
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I wouldn't have thought she should be sitting in cold water. Can you just put the water in when you want her to soak? I don't leave water down for mine but put them in a dish twice a day. I know mine are outside but if I leave water out in the run, the world and his wife fly down and bathe and poo in it! So I just bathe them when I decide, that way they are in clean, warm water.

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Old 13-07-2013, 05:46 PM   #14
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Only my stars have a humid area... the meds... have been raised pretty dry... you can grow a smooth tortoise dry... as long as it is internally hydrated... I can hazard a guess at the forum in question... and also a member on that forum that pushes it... he is a complete.... Ok I'll good and and won't say.
Oh so true about med tortoises:0)
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Old 13-07-2013, 06:00 PM   #15
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I guess all that studying AH is doing for nothing. It would seem that keepers know better than the kept.

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Oh so true about med tortoises:0)
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Old 13-07-2013, 11:34 PM   #16
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WEL I thought I had done ALL my research before getting our new little leopard tortoise,,, she is between 10 - 12 cm (not measured exactly as am trying to let her settle in) and I was going to keep her in an open tortoise table,, UV heat during the day,, turned off at night with a CHE on at night for the heat.. She is eating and drinking,, I am soaking her 3 times a week for 20 minutes and giving her calcium then calcium D3,,, my confusion is I stupidly went on an American forum (didn;t realise it was american) and they are telling me I am doing it ALL wrong as new research shows if they are kept in a humid environment of 80% in a covered enclosure then they will NOT pyramid and if I continue to keep her as she is then it is certain she will pyramid!!!! HELP unsure now as what to do,, they told me I am reading all old info.......
Thanks for the post and giving me an opportunity to throw in my $.02. Let me start by saying that I am well aware of the site your referring to and the person who started spreading the theory. Ive been keeping and breeding leopards since 1988 To think that you need to keep your tortoise in an covered enclosure with humidiy above 80% is out right crazy. Richard Fife was the guy who first started the thinking of "humid hides", "misting multiple times daily" coupled with daily soaking, that set loose a number of crazy keepers that took it all too far. If you go back and read the posts by the guys who promote Richards theory with their own extreme twist you will find that their parameters are off. These guys are also recommending that you blister your tortoise with 100f+ basking temps, which anyone with common sense will tell you that tortoises and most all other animals are not out when temps reach that hot. So, to combat these extreme basking temps they have to recommend humidity above 80%. Research on leopard tortoises has shown that they will bask until their core temp reaches about 92f., and that their mean core temp is closer to 86f. Here in Hawaii where I live the average high temp is 86f with just over 50% humidity and my leopard tortoises that I have raised here are as smooth as bowling balls. We also get 120+ inches of rain here at my house a year. Even with all that rain I have never found humidity levels above 70% in the thickest bush for more than 2 days. And, in my largely wild pens, Ive never found humidity levels above 80% in any hide or the tallest grass. It's quite simple really. The higher the basking temp the higher the humidity needs to be. I'm waiting for these guys to start posting that they have raised basking temps to above 120f but they have to keep the tortoise in a swimming pool LOL! I recommend basking spots in the mid to low 90'sf and humidity levels above 50% with a humid hide. Soaking every other day is fine just to make sure your tortoise is well hydrated which is the real key to tortoise health.

On a side note. Read the early posts of the guy who is doing the recommending of the extreme humidity. You will see that he has only been keeping tortoises for a couple of years yet claims to have been keeping tortoises for over 20 years. All of which are lies. He has used this false info to convince people that they need to listen to him. Just read his first few posts its all you need to know.
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Old 13-07-2013, 11:51 PM   #17
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Are you that insecure that you have to attack a person who has been keeping Leopards way longer than you???????

I constantly wonder where you came from? You were totally unknown before the internet... which is not that long ago.

Both me and Richard have been keeping Leopards before then... Richard has been keeping them before me.

Again... you can throw a group of any tortoise together in an ideal climate and breed them. That is not understanding the breeding and development of the animal.

Where you really understand the animal is raising and breeding them in an environment that is totally different to where they originate.

You have some serious insecurity issues. I find myself falling to these issues on occasions.

Richard did not come up with the humididy idea alone. There were a few keepers who had the same idea which has to make you wonder... again... these ideas came up before the internet. This medium only spread it wider.

I can't believe the crap you are spouting... Are you loosing it???????

I keep telling myself not to develop a god complex that some keepers seem to project.

Yes... I do fall into that trap on occasion but it is usually in response to some ignorant people who really don't understand the basic biology of a reptile.

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Originally Posted by onarock View Post
Thanks for the post and giving me an opportunity to throw in my $.02. Let me start by saying that I am well aware of the site your referring to and the person who started spreading the theory. A little background on me. I keep and breed leopard tortoises in the state of Hawaii. I produce just over 200 hatchlings a year. Ive been keeping loepards since 1989 and still have my first one. I first started producing hatchlings since 1998. To think that you need to keep your tortoise in an covered enclosure with humidiy above 80% is out right crazy. Richard Fife was the guy who first started the thinking of "humid hides", "misting multiple times daily" coupled with daily soaking, that set loose a number of crazy keepers that took it all too far. If you go back and read the posts by the guys who promote Richards theory with their own extreme twist you will find that their parameters are off. These guys are also recommending that you blister your tortoise with 100f+ basking temps, which anyone with common sense will tell you that tortoises and most all other animals are not out when temps reach that hot. So, to combat these extreme basking temps they have to recommend humidity above 80%. Research on leopard tortoises has shown that they will bask until their core temp reaches about 92f., and that their mean core temp is closer to 86f. Here in Hawaii where I live the average high temp is 86f with just over 50% humidity and my leopard tortoises that I have raised here are as smooth as bowling balls. We also get 120+ inches of rain here at my house a year. Even with all that rain I have never found humidity levels above 70% in the thickest bush for more than 2 days. And, in my largely wild pens, Ive never found humidity levels above 80% in any hide or the tallest grass. It's quite simple really. The higher the basking temp the higher the humidity needs to be. I'm waiting for these guys to start posting that they have raised basking temps to above 120f but they have to keep the tortoise in a swimming pool LOL! I recommend basking spots in the mid to low 90'sf and humidity levels above 50% with a humid hide. Soaking every other day is fine just to make sure your tortoise is well hydrated which is the real key to tortoise health.

On a side note. Read the early posts of the guy who is doing the recommending of the extreme humidity. You will see that he has only been keeping tortoises for a couple of years yet claims to have been keeping tortoises for over 20 years. All of which are lies. He has used this false info to convince people that they need to listen to him. Just read his first few posts its all you need to know.
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Old 14-07-2013, 12:22 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by EJ View Post
Are you that insecure that you have to attack a person who has been keeping Leopards way longer than you???????

I constantly wonder where you came from? You were totally unknown before the internet... which is not that long ago.

Both me and Richard have been keeping Leopards before then... Richard has been keeping them before me.

Again... you can throw a group of any tortoise together in an ideal climate and breed them. That is not understanding the breeding and development of the animal.

Where you really understand the animal is raising and breeding them in an environment that is totally different to where they originate.

You have some serious insecurity issues. I find myself falling to these issues on occasions.

Richard did not come up with the humididy idea alone. There were a few keepers who had the same idea which has to make you wonder... again... these ideas came up before the internet. This medium only spread it wider.

I can't believe the crap you are spouting... Are you loosing it???????

I keep telling myself not to develop a god complex that some keepers seem to project.

Yes... I do fall into that trap on occasion but it is usually in response to some ignorant people who really don't understand the basic biology of a reptile.
I always love it when the "town drunk" chimes in and messes up what people write.

First of all.. your question of "Am I that insecure" Answer "I am not the man in this conversation who is 5'6". Second. I am not attacking Richard Fife. Read Kellys reply... she knows who I am attacking.

(Blushing) I am flattered that you constantly wonder where I came from. I could not care less about you.

Nice of your ego to tie yourself in with Richard Fife. Again.. I was not attacking Richard. Actually, I helped Richard with the purchase of one of his frist male leopards from Chris at Reptile Haven years and years ago. He was with I believe Charles Henderson from the San Diego Zoo, who like you, was raising sulcatas by the hundreds in San Diego. So, now you know how far back I go. I never published a book on tortoise if thats what you mean, but I did help Philippe on occasion with "The Vivarium" mostly with brookesia.perarmata.

Where you really understand the animal is raising and breeding them in an environment that is totally different to where they originate.

Thanks for the above comment Ed, but just to let you know, Leopard tortoises are the widest ranging tortoise in Africa. From sub Sahara to the Cape. Last I checked that is a large area that has many climate zones. Which one do your refer to????

Twice you suggest insecurities. look in the mirror.

What crap am I spouting? Refute or shut the hell up.

You have to keep telling yourself not to develop a "god" complex? LOL time to put the ego to bed or switch beverages.

Again. I was only referring to Richard because that is where the people who I am assuming are giving the Original Poster on this thread other info got their idea from. It was their words.... not mine.
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Last edited by onarock; 14-07-2013 at 12:32 AM.
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Old 14-07-2013, 12:51 AM   #19
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You ass. Was anything I said off base??????????

Wow... you never cease to amaze me with what you say.(don't bother... I'm guessing you say the same about me)

Ego has nothing to do with me and Richard... we've been friends since eighty something... when we met at the Northern California Herp symposium... when we first compared notes on the humid environment and shell development of leopards.

I've never bred a Sulcata.

The crap you are spouting is the lack of need for heat and hydration... in simple terms.

The rest... It's been very interesting conversing with you over the last few years. It went from apparent friends to this... huh... I wonder where the turn occured.

Oh... if you want to throw out numbers... I got my first Leopard in 79... bred my first in 83...

I'm tired of compairing dicks... your the bigger one.

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I always love it when the "town drunk" chimes in and messes up what people write.

First of all.. your question of "Am I that insecure" Answer "I am not the man in this conversation who is 5'6". Second. I am not attacking Richard Fife. Read Kellys reply... she knows who I am attacking.

(Blushing) I am flattered that you constantly wonder where I came from. I could not care less about you.


Nice of your ego to tie yourself in with Richard Fife. Again.. I was not attacking Richard. Actually, I helped Richard with the purchase of one of his frist male leopards from Chris at Reptile Haven years and years ago. He was with I believe Charles Henderson from the San Diego Zoo, who like you, was raising sulcatas by the hundreds in San Diego. So, now you know how far back I go. I never published a book on tortoise if thats what you mean, but I did help Philippe on occasion with "The Vivarium" mostly with brookesia.perarmata.

Where you really understand the animal is raising and breeding them in an environment that is totally different to where they originate.

Thanks for the above comment Ed, but just to let you know, Leopard tortoises are the widest ranging tortoise in Africa. From sub Sahara to the Cape. Last I checked that is a large area that has many climate zones. Which one do your refer to????

Twice you suggest insecurities. look in the mirror.

What crap am I spouting? Refute or shut the hell up.

You have to keep telling yourself not to develop a "god" complex? LOL time to put the ego to bed or switch beverages.

Again. I was only referring to Richard because that is where the people who I am assuming are giving the Original Poster on this thread other info got their idea from. It was their words.... not mine.
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Old 14-07-2013, 01:14 AM   #20
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You ass. Was anything I said off base??????????

Wow... you never cease to amaze me with what you say.(don't bother... I'm guessing you say the same about me)

Ego has nothing to do with me and Richard... we've been friends since eighty something... when we met at the Northern California Herp symposium... when we first compared notes on the humid environment and shell development of leopards.

I've never bred a Sulcata.

The crap you are spouting is the lack of need for heat and hydration... in simple terms.

The rest... It's been very interesting conversing with you over the last few years. It went from apparent friends to this... huh... I wonder where the turn occured.

Oh... if you want to throw out numbers... I got my first Leopard in 79... bred my first in 83...

I'm tired of compairing dicks... your the bigger one.

LOL OK..easy there little feller. Dont try to play the victim. You know what you were doing when you wrote what you wrote. Your condescending tone in your writing says it all. You wanted to know where I came from... well this is where Im coming from... Grow a Pair and quit whining or have another drink.. I dont give a F... I always considered most of our exchange friendly, but Im sick of you reading what I wrote "half cocked" and then messing the whole thing up. This isnt the first time nor the second. I just figured, this is how you communicate with the great Ed Pirog.. who.. by the way.. has killed more tortoises than a Chinese soup kitchen. Im over it... you and your short man syndrome. I dont care what you think about me. Im not interested in being on your NAME Dropping list of constituents... tortoise "Peers" as another egotistical tortoise keeper whom you know would put it.

What I am not spewing is the lack of heat or hydration. To put it simply. The higher the basking spot the need for higher humidity. The lower the basking temp.. the lower the humidity. Moderation.. and common sense is all.

Now if you will excuse me.. I am going to build a pool to help facilitate my new tortoise husbandry parameters. 120+ basking and 100% humidity
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