Formulated Diets

[EJ]

While these are mostly pelleted... not all are formulated based on a chelonians nutritional requirement. Many of the newer diets seem to be based on 'gut feeling'... which is not always a bad thing but as many have posted in the past is not time tested. I do think 20 or 30 years and a few generations is a pretty good indicator as to the quality of a diet.

Now... this post has another purpose... because of the membership base I think I might get the results I'm looking for.

I've been following a formulated thread on two other forums... both of which I'm not allowed to respond to. Knowing how the rumor mill works so efficiently I'm sure I can get a response here... eventually.

This post is specifically directed to the owner of a specific group and members of the subscribers to his particular group.

There are specific studies associated with studies using the Mazuri tortoise diet which is distributed by a totally different company here in the states than that which is distributed in the UK.

The Zoos and institutions that use the diet conducted trial studies as most zoos and institutions which intend to use a new diet. This is especially true in the case of a commercially formulated diet.

The main problem with making the studies is that the these institutions do not want to give the impression that they are endorsing the diet. This would most likely lead to the accusation of impropriety.

The nutritionists of the manufacturer does not want to release because they feel that the intent of those that are interested in the information are only interested in slandering the company and are not really on a fact finding mission... they are basically fishing know knowing what exactly they are looking for. In other words... if you have a problem with the diet do your own research and produce your own results.

A couple points caught my attention in those discussions... The most humorous is the topic of salt or more specifically... sodium. In many posts the owner of this group mentions that many of the diets are too high in sodium... and... goes on about this at length. Then... there is one post where he out and out states that the tolerance or requirement for sodium is totally unknown in tortoises.

This leads to the next question that is consistently sidestepped... protein... what is the tolerance and what is the requirement of protein for tortoises.

Finally... I'm constantly asked for proof... reworded... studies... very hard to come by specifically relating to tortoises. The most well studied tortoises are the Galapagos and the California Desert tortoise. If there is anything to be found on any of these topics it will be found there but those studies that I've pointed out in the past have been dismissed as being non applicable to Mediterranean Tortoises or African Tortoises.

I'd like to ask this person... where is your proof that any of these diets are harmful to chelonians... Most of us would accept evidence as food for thought... as I have provided.

Drop the rhetoric... and provide some substantial evidence to support you claims.

[Helen M]

Not sure you'll get a response on here.. I do find that when certain tortoises are held up as examples as to why you shouldn't feed pellets by certain organisations, there are often other conflicting factors (no uv, lack of calcium, wrong temps etc) that could be attributing more to the bad growth and metabolic bone disease these individuals exhibit. I would think that those who know most of the basics would notice this too.

Helen xx

[EJ]

It really doesn't matter if I get the response I'm looking for. I really would just like to get the information out there and get some people to thinking about the misinformation they are being fed.

These kinds of conversations do have a way of finding their way around.

It's a real shame how so many groups are polarized and the new keeper has very little recourse because just by the nature of them being new they really have not found a decent resource of information.

Originally Posted by Helen M

Not sure you'll get a response on here.. I do find that when certain tortoises are held up as examples as to why you shouldn't feed pellets by certain organisations, there are often other conflicting factors (no uv, lack of calcium, wrong temps etc) that could be attributing more to the bad growth and metabolic bone disease these individuals exhibit. I would think that those who know most of the basics would notice this too.

Helen xx

[Anita Sayles]

Originally Posted by EJ

It's a real shame how so many groups are polarized and the new keeper has very little recourse because just by the nature of them being new they really have not found a decent resource of information.

True... I joined a certain forum before finding this one. The horror stories of formulated diets were firmly in-printed in my mind. TBH I'm afraid to feed them.
Ed I have confidence in what you have to say about formulated diets and now I'm slowly realising that variety is the key and not to get focused on one specific as other factors can easily be ignored

These threads seem to go on and on... lot's of talk but they never seem to come to any final conclusion.
Which reminds me I have a can of tomatoes in the larder!!!

[Geomyda]

Originally Posted by Anita Sayles

True... I joined a certain forum before finding this one. The horror stories of formulated diets were firmly in-printed in my mind. TBH I'm afraid to feed them.
Ed I have confidence in what you have to say about formulated diets and now I'm slowly realising that variety is the key and not to get focused on one specific as other factors can easily be ignored

These threads seem to go on and on... lot's of talk but they never seem to come to any final conclusion.
Which reminds me I have a can of tomatoes in the larder!!!

Do check its salt content!

[16 shells]

Originally Posted by Geomyda

Do check its salt content!

In the Pellet's or the Tinned Tomatoes.

[Geomyda]

Originally Posted by 16 shells

In the Pellet's or the Tinned Tomatoes.

Amusing thing Paul, having observed a number of wild populations of T g ibera, and T h boettgeri. Some of the best populations I have seen, in terms of density, and apparent viable status; that is to say, were in good numerical shape and exhibited animals in adult and sub adult form. These were in former salt pans in Greece and Turkey. Their natural habitat was, I would say, extremely high in salt content. In one particular population, in the area of Kaunos, near the town of Dalyan in Turkey. The location was also the site of a former Roman/Lycian hrarbour which over several millenia has silted up and the salt pans date back to antiquity. This might suggest, that the wild population of T g ibera, have survived many thousands of years in herbage which has high salt content!

[Bindi]

Originally Posted by Geomyda

Amusing thing Paul, having observed a number of wild populations of T g ibera, and T h boettgeri. Some of the best populations I have seen, in terms of density, and apparent viable status; that is to say, were in good numerical shape and exhibited animals in adult and sub adult form. These were in former salt pans in Greece and Turkey. Their natural habitat was, I would say, extremely high in salt content. In one particular population, in the area of Kaunos, near the town of Dalyan in Turkey. The location was also the site of a former Roman/Lycian hrarbour which over several millenia has silted up and the salt pans date back to antiquity. This might suggest, that the wild population of T g ibera, have survived many thousands of years in herbage which has his salt content!

Very interesting observation

[Anita Sayles]

Originally Posted by Geomyda

Amusing thing Paul, having observed a number of wild populations of T g ibera, and T h boettgeri. Some of the best populations I have seen, in terms of density, and apparent viable status; that is to say, were in good numerical shape and exhibited animals in adult and sub adult form. These were in former salt pans in Greece and Turkey. Their natural habitat was, I would say, extremely high in salt content. In one particular population, in the area of Kaunos, near the town of Dalyan in Turkey. The location was also the site of a former Roman/Lycian hrarbour which over several millenia has silted up and the salt pans date back to antiquity. This might suggest, that the wild population of T g ibera, have survived many thousands of years in herbage which has his salt content!

Makes you think doesn't it!

[ibizathetort]

Originally Posted by Geomyda

Amusing thing Paul, having observed a number of wild populations of T g ibera, and T h boettgeri. Some of the best populations I have seen, in terms of density, and apparent viable status; that is to say, were in good numerical shape and exhibited animals in adult and sub adult form. These were in former salt pans in Greece and Turkey. Their natural habitat was, I would say, extremely high in salt content. In one particular population, in the area of Kaunos, near the town of Dalyan in Turkey. The location was also the site of a former Roman/Lycian hrarbour which over several millenia has silted up and the salt pans date back to antiquity. This might suggest, that the wild population of T g ibera, have survived many thousands of years in herbage which has high salt content!

That is interesting to read