Ploughshare, Radiated and more .... - Page 2

dorchard1978 · 04-08-2010, 03:34 PM

Hi EJ,
I understand your view that the key factor is habitat destruction, however now the Ploughshare tortoise has numbers as low as it does in the wild, and collection is still occurring this would lead me to believe that collection and the continued destruction of their habitat is a joint problem. I know that you could be looking at the issue by saying that if there was a bigger habitat then there would be bound to be more areas that the tortoises were found, but I was discussing their situation right at this point in time. Habitat destruction has been a real problem over the years for this tortoise and continues to be. The real problem is that even some of the remote areas were these species are found - and this is area that would be unsuitable for any form of attempts to farm upon - are still visited by poachers.

Another problem seems to be that the countries non-native population are not living by the same beliefs as the native Madagascans when it comes to their tortoises. Natives would not often take the torts to be eaten or sold, but they would take some for pets. Generally natives want to see no harm on the tortoises found in their country. Non natives do not hold the same values and quite often collect these rare animals to eat and sell for the pet industry. The one positive thing here is that the native population genuinely want the best for these animals and if that resource could be tapped a bit more it could help........ Maybe???? Maybe eco-tourism will one day help, and the brilliant support for such projects from tortoise charities around the world could make a difference. Generally it has to come from the local to gather enough tortoise support to increase the sucsess of such programs to help secure the future of the tortoises.
However, I feel that once again all this is down to the economic and political state that the country finds itself in - Habitat destruction in the way it occurs there is partly attributed to this. In saying that, the collection could still occur as well as if the country was in a more ‘stable’ condition. I just feel in such a complex conservation issue, as I was commenting upon, a one reason answer is clearly not the only issue.

I have worked within zoos and animal retail businesses for the past 13 years as a breeder, animal manager, facility manager, and site manager in the UK. Over time I have seen animals fluctuate in price and availability from captive bred sources. I even did my dissertation on growth rates and profitability of captive rearing animals in intensive culture. Again there is not usually a universal reason why animals are expensive then cheap and then expensive again, but I suppose if you looked you would probably find that it is a supply and demand situation. But you cannot assume that this will stay the same. I know of many instances where individuals and large or small companies hold information for breeding certain species to ensure that they continue to gain as much profit for their scientific investment (this can also ensure that they do not flood the market with a certain species to ensure the price stays high)- for them it makes sense really. But these techniques kept so secret are often leaked and other breeding become just as successful and flood the market. With such a small amount breeders disease could become an issue, the fecundity of the generations down the line may not be great from the lack of wild caught animals in the future to help strengthen the bloodlines – the list is quite extensive. All we are seeing now is a bit more of an increase in the availability in a time when the world is still experiencing a big financial problem. I do not believe that just because they have halved in price now that they are going to stay that way or get still cheaper – and I am also not really understanding what else I can take for granted in this situation.

I think it is sites like this where people are open-minded and discuss developments that some really special things can happen!

All the best to everybody on the site

Darren

EJ · 04-08-2010, 08:05 PM

wow...

... don't know where to begin.

The trade does not go up and down. There is a 'flavor' that sells well and is then over produced... think albino burmese... that's an easy one. Another easy one... the leopard gecko... the normals went for hundreds not too long ago... relative terms. Now they go for 10... 15 bucks... pounds. I've never seen an animal go up and down in value... or I can't think of one... not one.

The point I'm trying to make is that the world is becoming over crowded... habitat is being overrun and the captive keeping and breeding of some species is the only choice of the survival of these species.

For the younger folks... please don't see this as a fatalistic point of view.

The point... again... the passionate hobbiest... can actually be the savior to many of the species being wiped out... this is plants, fish, mammals tortoises... I can go on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dorchard1978

Hi EJ,
I understand your view that the key factor is habitat destruction, however now the Ploughshare tortoise has numbers as low as it does in the wild, and collection is still occurring this would lead me to believe that collection and the continued destruction of their habitat is a joint problem. I know that you could be looking at the issue by saying that if there was a bigger habitat then there would be bound to be more areas that the tortoises were found, but I was discussing their situation right at this point in time. Habitat destruction has been a real problem over the years for this tortoise and continues to be. The real problem is that even some of the remote areas were these species are found - and this is area that would be unsuitable for any form of attempts to farm upon - are still visited by poachers.

Another problem seems to be that the countries non-native population are not living by the same beliefs as the native Madagascans when it comes to their tortoises. Natives would not often take the torts to be eaten or sold, but they would take some for pets. Generally natives want to see no harm on the tortoises found in their country. Non natives do not hold the same values and quite often collect these rare animals to eat and sell for the pet industry. The one positive thing here is that the native population genuinely want the best for these animals and if that resource could be tapped a bit more it could help........ Maybe???? Maybe eco-tourism will one day help, and the brilliant support for such projects from tortoise charities around the world could make a difference. Generally it has to come from the local to gather enough tortoise support to increase the sucsess of such programs to help secure the future of the tortoises.
However, I feel that once again all this is down to the economic and political state that the country finds itself in - Habitat destruction in the way it occurs there is partly attributed to this. In saying that, the collection could still occur as well as if the country was in a more ‘stable’ condition. I just feel in such a complex conservation issue, as I was commenting upon, a one reason answer is clearly not the only issue.

I have worked within zoos and animal retail businesses for the past 13 years as a breeder, animal manager, facility manager, and site manager in the UK. Over time I have seen animals fluctuate in price and availability from captive bred sources. I even did my dissertation on growth rates and profitability of captive rearing animals in intensive culture. Again there is not usually a universal reason why animals are expensive then cheap and then expensive again, but I suppose if you looked you would probably find that it is a supply and demand situation. But you cannot assume that this will stay the same. I know of many instances where individuals and large or small companies hold information for breeding certain species to ensure that they continue to gain as much profit for their scientific investment (this can also ensure that they do not flood the market with a certain species to ensure the price stays high)- for them it makes sense really. But these techniques kept so secret are often leaked and other breeding become just as successful and flood the market. With such a small amount breeders disease could become an issue, the fecundity of the generations down the line may not be great from the lack of wild caught animals in the future to help strengthen the bloodlines – the list is quite extensive. All we are seeing now is a bit more of an increase in the availability in a time when the world is still experiencing a big financial problem. I do not believe that just because they have halved in price now that they are going to stay that way or get still cheaper – and I am also not really understanding what else I can take for granted in this situation.

I think it is sites like this where people are open-minded and discuss developments that some really special things can happen!

All the best to everybody on the site

Darren

Helen M · 04-08-2010, 08:15 PM

Are there any actual hobbyists who are keeping Ploughshares anywhere in the world outside of Madagascar? It would be interesting to know... specially as I read somewhere that the retail price for such animals was around £25'000 each.

The fact that there are a mere few hundred left in the wild is worrying for sure and it would be reassuring to know that there was some concerted efforts going in to breeding these animals outside of their volatile country of origin.

Helen xx

EJ · 04-08-2010, 08:24 PM

There is a guy here in Georgia, US who has a male which he's been trying to pair for umteen years. Totally legal. The laws prevent this. I've heard of rumors of breeders in the orient... based on singapore. The laws are preventing this and I see it as seriously short sighted.

I don't think anyone woudl pay the price you listed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helen M

Are there any actual hobbyists who are keeping Ploughshares anywhere in the world outside of Madagascar? It would be interesting to know... specially as I read somewhere that the retail price for such animals was around £25'000 each.

The fact that there are a mere few hundred left in the wild is worrying for sure and it would be reassuring to know that there was some concerted efforts going in to breeding these animals outside of their volatile country of origin.

Helen xx

Helen M · 04-08-2010, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EJ

I don't think anyone woudl pay the price you listed.

Lol me neither... then again certain morphs of snake sell for those sort of prices.. But I guess if there's no way to make a decent return out of the animal from selling hatchlings £25K probably isn't realistic..

Helen xx

justmeandmytortoise · 04-08-2010, 08:35 PM

I do see your point Ed

, and reading The Last Tortoise I can understand the problems chelonia face, now and in the future

. I feel no-one has the right to take any chelonia from the wild, or buy an illegally sold wild caught tortoise (be it a Ploughshare or a Radiated, etc).

I can see the value of captive bred breeding programmes.

justmeandmytortoise · 04-08-2010, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EJ

There is a guy here in Georgia, US who has a male which he's been trying to pair for umteen years. Totally legal. The laws prevent this. I've heard of rumors of breeders in the orient... based on singapore. The laws are preventing this and I see it as seriously short sighted.

I don't think anyone woudl pay the price you listed.

I think I am confused and forgive me if I am wrong ... did someone not post that it is illegal to keep reptiles in Singapore? How can there be breeders in a country where it is illegal?

Helen M · 04-08-2010, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by justmeandmytortoise

I do see your point Ed

, and reading The Last Tortoise I can understand the problems chelonia face, now and in the future

. I feel no-one has the right to take any chelonia from the wild, or buy an illegally sold wild caught tortoise (be it a Ploughshare or a Radiated, etc).

I can see the value of captive bred breeding programmes.

I'm in favour of collecting animals from the wild for captive breeding programmes. I think for these species it would be the best thing to do before its too late to save them.

Helen xx

EJ · 04-08-2010, 08:41 PM

I know a guy who morgaged his house... ironicly... for an albino burmese.

I know about $40,000 ball pythons... today... 3...4... hundred and less. That's the point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helen M

Lol me neither... then again certain morphs of snake sell for those sort of prices.. But I guess if there's no way to make a decent return out of the animal from selling hatchlings £25K probably isn't realistic..

Helen xx

Kirkie · 04-08-2010, 08:41 PM

I agree wth Ed that habitat is shrinking and that hobbiests could play a part in the continuation of a species, its just that big organisations dont take them seriously enough. I know of one big uk society that ceased its Heosemys Grandis breeding because other zoological societies werent interested in a big, brown turtle to exhibit. No mention of the offspring going to the keen amateur.

The political instability in an already ecologically unstable region on a unique island habitat is a disaster waiting to happen. Lift trade embargoes, get the people back to work, maybe that'll release the pressure on the wild life.

I know this is a tortoise forum so the focus is on tortoises but animals are already being marked extinct in madagascar. Somewhere out there is a Grebe forum in mourning as a Mauritian species has been declared extinct very recently.

To end on a positive note, CB Burmese Stars for sale in Europe this week.

04-08-2010, 08:35 PM	#16
justmeandmytortoise Senior Member Adult Join Date: May 2009 Location: Kent Posts: 2,682	I do see your point Ed , and reading The Last Tortoise I can understand the problems chelonia face, now and in the future . I feel no-one has the right to take any chelonia from the wild, or buy an illegally sold wild caught tortoise (be it a Ploughshare or a Radiated, etc). I can see the value of captive bred breeding programmes. __________________ www.justmeandmytortoise.webs.com Tortoise, Terrapin and Turtle group covering Kent and London

04-08-2010, 03:34 PM	#11
dorchard1978 Junior Member Egg Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 19	Hi EJ, I understand your view that the key factor is habitat destruction, however now the Ploughshare tortoise has numbers as low as it does in the wild, and collection is still occurring this would lead me to believe that collection and the continued destruction of their habitat is a joint problem. I know that you could be looking at the issue by saying that if there was a bigger habitat then there would be bound to be more areas that the tortoises were found, but I was discussing their situation right at this point in time. Habitat destruction has been a real problem over the years for this tortoise and continues to be. The real problem is that even some of the remote areas were these species are found - and this is area that would be unsuitable for any form of attempts to farm upon - are still visited by poachers. Another problem seems to be that the countries non-native population are not living by the same beliefs as the native Madagascans when it comes to their tortoises. Natives would not often take the torts to be eaten or sold, but they would take some for pets. Generally natives want to see no harm on the tortoises found in their country. Non natives do not hold the same values and quite often collect these rare animals to eat and sell for the pet industry. The one positive thing here is that the native population genuinely want the best for these animals and if that resource could be tapped a bit more it could help........ Maybe???? Maybe eco-tourism will one day help, and the brilliant support for such projects from tortoise charities around the world could make a difference. Generally it has to come from the local to gather enough tortoise support to increase the sucsess of such programs to help secure the future of the tortoises. However, I feel that once again all this is down to the economic and political state that the country finds itself in - Habitat destruction in the way it occurs there is partly attributed to this. In saying that, the collection could still occur as well as if the country was in a more ‘stable’ condition. I just feel in such a complex conservation issue, as I was commenting upon, a one reason answer is clearly not the only issue. I have worked within zoos and animal retail businesses for the past 13 years as a breeder, animal manager, facility manager, and site manager in the UK. Over time I have seen animals fluctuate in price and availability from captive bred sources. I even did my dissertation on growth rates and profitability of captive rearing animals in intensive culture. Again there is not usually a universal reason why animals are expensive then cheap and then expensive again, but I suppose if you looked you would probably find that it is a supply and demand situation. But you cannot assume that this will stay the same. I know of many instances where individuals and large or small companies hold information for breeding certain species to ensure that they continue to gain as much profit for their scientific investment (this can also ensure that they do not flood the market with a certain species to ensure the price stays high)- for them it makes sense really. But these techniques kept so secret are often leaked and other breeding become just as successful and flood the market. With such a small amount breeders disease could become an issue, the fecundity of the generations down the line may not be great from the lack of wild caught animals in the future to help strengthen the bloodlines – the list is quite extensive. All we are seeing now is a bit more of an increase in the availability in a time when the world is still experiencing a big financial problem. I do not believe that just because they have halved in price now that they are going to stay that way or get still cheaper – and I am also not really understanding what else I can take for granted in this situation. I think it is sites like this where people are open-minded and discuss developments that some really special things can happen! All the best to everybody on the site Darren

04-08-2010, 08:15 PM	#13
Helen M Senior Member Adult Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 2,362	Are there any actual hobbyists who are keeping Ploughshares anywhere in the world outside of Madagascar? It would be interesting to know... specially as I read somewhere that the retail price for such animals was around £25'000 each. The fact that there are a mere few hundred left in the wild is worrying for sure and it would be reassuring to know that there was some concerted efforts going in to breeding these animals outside of their volatile country of origin. Helen xx

04-08-2010, 08:41 PM	#20
Kirkie Senior Member Adult Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,887	I agree wth Ed that habitat is shrinking and that hobbiests could play a part in the continuation of a species, its just that big organisations dont take them seriously enough. I know of one big uk society that ceased its Heosemys Grandis breeding because other zoological societies werent interested in a big, brown turtle to exhibit. No mention of the offspring going to the keen amateur. The political instability in an already ecologically unstable region on a unique island habitat is a disaster waiting to happen. Lift trade embargoes, get the people back to work, maybe that'll release the pressure on the wild life. I know this is a tortoise forum so the focus is on tortoises but animals are already being marked extinct in madagascar. Somewhere out there is a Grebe forum in mourning as a Mauritian species has been declared extinct very recently. To end on a positive note, CB Burmese Stars for sale in Europe this week.

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