QUESTION FOR TORTOISE BREEDERS

morgeyworgey · 27-07-2006, 01:27 PM

hello i have a question for tortoise breeders?

ive just been had a go at my email by someone regarding my tortoises that were bought from a pet shop. the person said that tortoises should never be bought from a pet shop because they are all caught in the wild. which i dont agree with. maybe some pet shops do but i dont beleive it is the norm.

plus where do you breeders get your tortoises from in the first place? old tortoises that are in this country were caught in the wild in the first place and i guess alot of breeders must have started off with tortoises from pet shops or that were caught in the wild.

im really cross with this person who emailed me. it may be alot of peoples prefered way to get a tortoise from a breeder but you can say all pet shops are illegally getting their tortoises from the wild.

my tortoises are 5 years old now. ive had them 4 years and never had any illnesses or anything. im fed up with people assuming they are ill and full of disease and been ill treated just because they started their life in a pet shop. there must be bad breeders out there too!!!

Henry-flash · 27-07-2006, 01:33 PM

Ok so I'm not a breeder but would like to add a comment. Where do any animals that are in captivity come from. Yes originally the wild. So yes a lot of breders have animals that are wild caught originally, but if these animlas hadnt been brought inot captivity then none of us would have torotoises. Would we? Now I dont agree with importing tortoises and think that with all the breeders about there really is no need to buy from petshops. Believe me I am not having a go at you all of my Hermanns are from petshops and I have to face the fact that they are most likely wild caught, but with the knowledge I have gained since getting them I would not buy from a shop again but would instead rehome older tortoises or go to a breeder. And yes most petshops are getting there tortoises from the wild but the way it is done makes it legal. What is the country of origin on you tortoises article 10s.

morgeyworgey · 27-07-2006, 01:37 PM

mine are horsefields so havent got and dont need certificates

Henry-flash · 27-07-2006, 01:45 PM

Right fair enough. The fact they are horsfields and bought from a shop will most probably make them wild caught more so because as you say they dont require papers so can easily be imported without the importer having to prove where they came from. As you say imports arent neccesarily diseased and I myself havent had problems wiht any of mine, but I would still get newly bought tortoises that are suspected imports checked out. I have a picture which shows the terrible conditions torotises are imported in and why we need to stop buying from petshops which will get rid of the demand for them to be imported. I woudl post it but due to the nature of the photo it will most likely upset many people, some of you will know the picture i mean and will understand my reasons for not posting it again

morgeyworgey · 27-07-2006, 02:02 PM

hello

i know they prob came from the wild and i wouldnt buy from a pet shop now but 4 years ago things were different. i didnt have internet access so i couldnt do so much research and get advice like on websites like this.

my two tortoises are 5 now ( this other person knew), and ive had them 4 years so if they were so ill treated like this other person said i guess they would have shown some signs of illness already.

sandy · 27-07-2006, 03:08 PM

What this person was saying about petshops on the whole is true they do import wild tortoises, which encourages
more tortoises to be taken from the wild. This is why most are protected species.
Most keepers I know who breed tortoises, have bred from tortoises that were imported from the fifties
sixties and part of the seventies. From then most mediteranean tortoises were classed as endangered
speices.
So then the dealers and importers started on Leopards, and russian and lots of other speices. Who dont
need paperwork. These are now going through the same as the meds.
There are enough captive bred tortoises bred in the UK now, that importation is not really needed.
But still people keep buying wild caught ones.
If you have russian tortoises of a couple of years old, then they are probably wild caught, as its only over the
last couple of years that some keepers have had old enough horsfields to breed from them.
Trying to inform people who want to take up tort keeping is difficult, and a lot these days are going on
line to find out as much as they can before buying. This is how we all learn.
What I dont agree with is keepers privately mailing you, they should be brave enough to do it on sites like this
one. Thats harrasment.
You have been very lucky with your tortoises, as at least 75% of people who do buy from petshops, have lots
of problems with their tortoises, some dying some very ill for a long time.
The person who emailed you is correct but not the way they went about it.
Sorry for long post, but it is needed.

Lisa McIntyre · 27-07-2006, 04:21 PM

[quote="morgeyworgey"]hello i have a question for tortoise breeders?
ive just been had a go at my email by someone regarding my tortoises that were bought from a pet shop. the person said that tortoises should never be bought from a pet shop because they are all caught in the wild. which i dont agree with. maybe some pet shops do but i dont beleive it is the norm.

Hi

I agree that it cannot be 100% of petshops selling wild caught tortoises, although its often hard to tell the difference. Many many of them (and dealers on the net) are selling imported "farmed" tortoises. They may or may not be being bred abroad in these "farms" but one of the major issues for me is the importation under stressful and cramped conditions. My point is why put the animals thro that when there is no need as there are plenty of genuinely captive bred tortoises in the country. I would NOT have a go at somebody that brought a tortoise in a petshop, I would only hope that they learn from it and spread the word to future tortoise keepers.

Your completely correct in saying the majority of breeding tortoises were originally wild caught being those that came in in the 60/70's. In those days, you could buy them for pennies unfortunately. Those tortoises were already in this country when the majority of us started keeping them but there is no need to bring in more causing illness and suffering.

Just my opinion.

saucysqueezy · 27-07-2006, 05:19 PM

I think my opinion is known on the matter

Flash Henry's comment is a good one, all pets at one point were wild, whether it be the one you own now, or the one that gave birth to it etc. Hindsight is a lovely thing.

You shouldn't be subjected to mindlessly ignorant individuals who want to target you due to their own misguidings and pompous attitudes. If I were on the receiving end I would email them and ask them if they would like to have their email plus address publically displayed here and receive feedback for their narrow minded attitude... "all pet shop sold tortoises are wild caught..." seriously if I hear that retarded line again I may do a little wee of anger!

blue · 28-07-2006, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by morgeyworgey

mine are horsefields so havent got and dont need certificates

I didn't know that no certificates are needed for horsefields. Why is that?

Lisa McIntyre · 28-07-2006, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue

Quote:

Originally Posted by morgeyworgey

mine are horsefields so havent got and dont need certificates

I didn't know that no certificates are needed for horsefields. Why is that?

Because although they are still listed by CITES, they are not Annexe A which means they dont need Article 10 certificates.

27-07-2006, 01:27 PM	#1
morgeyworgey Junior Member Egg Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 9	QUESTION FOR TORTOISE BREEDERS hello i have a question for tortoise breeders? ive just been had a go at my email by someone regarding my tortoises that were bought from a pet shop. the person said that tortoises should never be bought from a pet shop because they are all caught in the wild. which i dont agree with. maybe some pet shops do but i dont beleive it is the norm. plus where do you breeders get your tortoises from in the first place? old tortoises that are in this country were caught in the wild in the first place and i guess alot of breeders must have started off with tortoises from pet shops or that were caught in the wild. im really cross with this person who emailed me. it may be alot of peoples prefered way to get a tortoise from a breeder but you can say all pet shops are illegally getting their tortoises from the wild. my tortoises are 5 years old now. ive had them 4 years and never had any illnesses or anything. im fed up with people assuming they are ill and full of disease and been ill treated just because they started their life in a pet shop. there must be bad breeders out there too!!!

27-07-2006, 01:33 PM	#2
Henry-flash Senior Member Adult Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Cheshire Posts: 9,304	Ok so I'm not a breeder but would like to add a comment. Where do any animals that are in captivity come from. Yes originally the wild. So yes a lot of breders have animals that are wild caught originally, but if these animlas hadnt been brought inot captivity then none of us would have torotoises. Would we? Now I dont agree with importing tortoises and think that with all the breeders about there really is no need to buy from petshops. Believe me I am not having a go at you all of my Hermanns are from petshops and I have to face the fact that they are most likely wild caught, but with the knowledge I have gained since getting them I would not buy from a shop again but would instead rehome older tortoises or go to a breeder. And yes most petshops are getting there tortoises from the wild but the way it is done makes it legal. What is the country of origin on you tortoises article 10s. __________________ Peter Keeping: Testudo hermanni, Testudo graeca (graeca & ibera ), Testudo horsfieldi, Astrochelys radiata, Malacochersus tornieri and Kinixys belliana. The North West Tortoise Group

27-07-2006, 01:45 PM	#4
Henry-flash Senior Member Adult Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Cheshire Posts: 9,304	Right fair enough. The fact they are horsfields and bought from a shop will most probably make them wild caught more so because as you say they dont require papers so can easily be imported without the importer having to prove where they came from. As you say imports arent neccesarily diseased and I myself havent had problems wiht any of mine, but I would still get newly bought tortoises that are suspected imports checked out. I have a picture which shows the terrible conditions torotises are imported in and why we need to stop buying from petshops which will get rid of the demand for them to be imported. I woudl post it but due to the nature of the photo it will most likely upset many people, some of you will know the picture i mean and will understand my reasons for not posting it again __________________ Peter Keeping: Testudo hermanni, Testudo graeca (graeca & ibera ), Testudo horsfieldi, Astrochelys radiata, Malacochersus tornieri and Kinixys belliana. The North West Tortoise Group

27-07-2006, 03:08 PM	#6
sandy Senior Member Adult Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Kent UK Posts: 12,146	What this person was saying about petshops on the whole is true they do import wild tortoises, which encourages more tortoises to be taken from the wild. This is why most are protected species. Most keepers I know who breed tortoises, have bred from tortoises that were imported from the fifties sixties and part of the seventies. From then most mediteranean tortoises were classed as endangered speices. So then the dealers and importers started on Leopards, and russian and lots of other speices. Who dont need paperwork. These are now going through the same as the meds. There are enough captive bred tortoises bred in the UK now, that importation is not really needed. But still people keep buying wild caught ones. If you have russian tortoises of a couple of years old, then they are probably wild caught, as its only over the last couple of years that some keepers have had old enough horsfields to breed from them. Trying to inform people who want to take up tort keeping is difficult, and a lot these days are going on line to find out as much as they can before buying. This is how we all learn. What I dont agree with is keepers privately mailing you, they should be brave enough to do it on sites like this one. Thats harrasment. You have been very lucky with your tortoises, as at least 75% of people who do buy from petshops, have lots of problems with their tortoises, some dying some very ill for a long time. The person who emailed you is correct but not the way they went about it. Sorry for long post, but it is needed. __________________ < > 60+, keeping ibera, graeca and box turtles \0/ /_\ http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/tortoisefriends

27-07-2006, 04:21 PM	#7
Lisa McIntyre Member Incubating Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Kent UK Posts: 202	Re: QUESTION FOR TORTOISE BREEDERS [quote="morgeyworgey"]hello i have a question for tortoise breeders? ive just been had a go at my email by someone regarding my tortoises that were bought from a pet shop. the person said that tortoises should never be bought from a pet shop because they are all caught in the wild. which i dont agree with. maybe some pet shops do but i dont beleive it is the norm. Hi I agree that it cannot be 100% of petshops selling wild caught tortoises, although its often hard to tell the difference. Many many of them (and dealers on the net) are selling imported "farmed" tortoises. They may or may not be being bred abroad in these "farms" but one of the major issues for me is the importation under stressful and cramped conditions. My point is why put the animals thro that when there is no need as there are plenty of genuinely captive bred tortoises in the country. I would NOT have a go at somebody that brought a tortoise in a petshop, I would only hope that they learn from it and spread the word to future tortoise keepers. Your completely correct in saying the majority of breeding tortoises were originally wild caught being those that came in in the 60/70's. In those days, you could buy them for pennies unfortunately. Those tortoises were already in this country when the majority of us started keeping them but there is no need to bring in more causing illness and suffering. Just my opinion. __________________ Lisa http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tortoisefriends http://thetortoisehouse.com

27-07-2006, 01:37 PM	#3
morgeyworgey Junior Member Egg Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 9	mine are horsefields so havent got and dont need certificates

27-07-2006, 02:02 PM	#5
morgeyworgey Junior Member Egg Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 9	hello i know they prob came from the wild and i wouldnt buy from a pet shop now but 4 years ago things were different. i didnt have internet access so i couldnt do so much research and get advice like on websites like this. my two tortoises are 5 now ( this other person knew), and ive had them 4 years so if they were so ill treated like this other person said i guess they would have shown some signs of illness already.

27-07-2006, 05:19 PM	#8
saucysqueezy Member Incubating Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 166	I think my opinion is known on the matter Flash Henry's comment is a good one, all pets at one point were wild, whether it be the one you own now, or the one that gave birth to it etc. Hindsight is a lovely thing. You shouldn't be subjected to mindlessly ignorant individuals who want to target you due to their own misguidings and pompous attitudes. If I were on the receiving end I would email them and ask them if they would like to have their email plus address publically displayed here and receive feedback for their narrow minded attitude... "all pet shop sold tortoises are wild caught..." seriously if I hear that retarded line again I may do a little wee of anger!

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