A tale of Two Tortoises.

[cogsred]

14 days ago we took delivery of two TH Boettgeris. The male has gone to a nearby friend, and, (in theory) we have the female. They both originate from Macedonia, from a 2010 hatch, and are of pretty similar appearance (perhaps they are closely related). Smooth shelled, regular scutes, and approx' 8cm long.

The male? immediately settled into his new table home, rushing around consuming every available weed (grown in seed trays) or salad item thrown at him, rising early, digging in when necessary, basking under lamp, using night time sleep facilities etc. In short, behaving as a healthy tortoise might be expected to.

In complete contrast our female? ignored all the (lovingly cultured) weeds, is largely inactive, does not bask for any lengthy period, and only rises at about noon for a couple of hours before returning to shelter where she remains for long periods (22 hours). We ensure daily soaks, but have seen no evidence of her drinking or eating in a serious way (apart from a very small nibble at a clover leaf on day one). We were not too concerned about the anorexia initially, feeling that she needed settling in time, and she was excreting faeces and urates, so she must have been feeding before we acquired her, but the failure to hydrate (i've been checking her weight to see if she was taking any H2O on board, without me realising) was considerably worrying.

Today the worry got the upper hand, and this morning a 2.5 ml syringe of water was emptied into her mouth (not without some difficulty!).. This afternoon she appears fine, apparently non the worse for having suffered the indignity of an imposed drink. But (and this is the suprising aspect of this convoluted tale), a couple of hours ago i decided to offer her a few soaked Komodo pellets. Having spent 13 days refusing everything placed before her, all manner of treats, strawberries, cucumbers, toms, lettuce etc etc, she absolutely pounced on the pellets, eating about ten in one sitting..

Is it safe to assume that she must have been used to a pellet diet before her arrival here? i'm somewhat puzzled at the accute differences between the two torts' dietary habits , despite their similar background and their current environmental conditions (which match those widely advised to be appropriate for overwintering).

Anyway, i'm not any longer consumed by the worry of a dehydrated and anorexic tortoise. Of course, there is now the concern about how to encourage her to adopt a mainly weed diet (as her brother up the road does). So, a bit of a problem, but hopefully not quite as serious as the dehydration which i thought may be life threatening.

Any advice/observations would be welcome.

[kkenny]

if you bathe her regually that should be enough hydration for now so i wouldnt worry about the lack of drinking. I have never heard anyone force water on a tort like this and not sure i am in favour really.

I would give her pellets in a small bowl with mixed chopped weeds that you want her to live of eventually and gradually lessen the pellets and increase the weeds until you are happy with the amount of greens she is getting. No harm in having pellets to support the diet.

What temps have you got? under the lamp and in the cool end please?

[Pussygalore]

if these are imported animals it would pay to have a worm count done, many of these torts do carry a higher worm burden because of the way they are kept. There are tests that can be done online or its a simple cheap test for a reptile vet and for both torts not just the female.

[cogsred]

Thanks for the responses.

Do i detect a mild rebuke kkenny? Giving Olive a small amount of water with a syringe seemed preferable to allowing the possibility of dehydration injuring her health, which is something that can be quite dangerous according to a Tortoise Trust article that i noticed. But its a judgement thing i suppose. In fact Olive has 'perked up' somewhat since yesterday. She has eaten again, she appeared to drink at bath time, and she passed urates. Maybe she is settling in at last.

The temperature range on her table is 35C under the lamp, 21C ambient, drops to 13C -15C overnight. Maybe a bit low for the overnight, so we have rigged up a 75watt dull emitter to lift it a bit. What sort of temp do you think would be suitable?

[filardimarg2]

I use a ceramic heat emmiter over night with a stat set at 18/20c, not sure if that is what u meant. I haven't got it on a timer, the stat does the work & kicks in after the heat bulb goes off for the day.
Hope that helps.

Marg.

[cogsred]

Thank you 'marg2. When i referred to "dull emitter", an infrared ceramic heater is what was meant. Last night was quite cold up here on the Moray, so it was switched on throughout the night and the temp was recorded as hovering around 21C. i was a bit worried that was too high, but someone named EJ on here has suggested that the ideal overnight temp is not less than 22C - 23C in any event. This morning Olive was up reasonably early for her, and has been quite lively in the day, so maybe EJ is on to something?

What i have noticed since i started hanging here is the wide range of different views regarding tortoise husbandary. So perhaps whatever is most successful for the tort and its keeper is best, rather than too rigid an approach?

thanks again for the advice.

[pagan queen]

A daily bath in warm water is beneficial to tortoises. It gives them a chance to drink and often they will defaecate in the water. After soaking offer food, the warmth of the water often gives the tort an appetite.

Having said that, torts can take some time to settle in. They don't like change. I think forcing water in her may have caused some distress. It's much gentler to bathe her and let her drink as and when she wants to. Also, are you absolutely sure she hadn't had a drink when you weren't looking? I presume you have provided water in her table? Many people don't see their torts drinking.

The basking spot, directly under the bulb should be around 32-34c. If the temperature is not high enough the tort will not eat. It has to reach a high enough temp in order to digest food. When temps are not high enough any food in the torts stomach will not digest.

There is nothing wrong with a pellet diet. But don't provide supplements while feeding pellets as they are a complete diet.

[kkenny]

I think your temps are fine. She will settle I am sure, mind you it is coming up for the time when torts might slow down a bit anyway so I wouldnt worry.

[cogsred]

Olive has received a daily soak since she came to stay with us paganqueen, sometimes twice a day. Is there an effective way of determining whether a tortoise has definitely taken water via the mouth or any other orifice? Weighing (before and after a bath) using accurate scales seems to be quite a good method i suppose, and that was what we did. Of course, this method fails to cover any water that may have been taken from the drink dish, but given that Olive initially spent a minimum of 22 hours per day under her earthenware hide, i think it was reasonably safe to assume that she hadn't taken a drink for two weeks before i intervened.

Going off your (and kkenny's) remarks it is this matter which seems to be a bit controversial.

As i've suggested above, for me rehydration using a syringe was a matter of judgement. What you cannot know is that Olive came here via a 24 hour carrier. Prior to her arrival here i have no idea how she was being kept. She may have had good conditions with a sympathetic and expert reptile supplier, but equally it was possible that she was stuck in a glass vivarium on sawdust at overly high and dehydrating temps with may others (as they often appear to be in the retail outlets of the uneducated). i made an assumption that these could have been Olive's circumstances, and that it was possible that her ability to access water may have been uncertain for some time. i acted accordingly, out of concern for her wellfare, having read accounts of others acting similarly for the benefit of their tortoises.

i realise that the general case against intervening in the way that i did with a creature like a tortoise is a strong one, and in fact its a case that i can approve of - generally speaking. But its also clear enough that sometimes a human intervention can be a good thing can't it? particularly if the intervention is thought to be aiding a creatures wellbeing. That was my judgement in this case.

[pagan queen]

I think the thing to concentrate on now is the issue of getting your tortoise eating. The syringing of water is done so not worth going over again. My reason for mentioning it last time was simply to point out that it may have caused her stress and set her back with settling in.

If you are bathing her every day then she will drink if she needs to. If you see her lower her mouth under the water she quite possibly could be drinking. Sometimes if you look closely you can see them swallow.

What are the day time temps? Is her hide facing the light so she can see and feel the warmth from it?