too early? - Page 2

Cav3 · 13-11-2009, 05:15 PM

Dave and Helen, Mark (the vet who gave the hibernation talk Dave is refering to) happens to be my tortoise vet; I saw him today and asked him whether the post hibernation anorexia he was refering to was more prominent in the box or fridge method. His answer was the cases he dealt with this year were all box methods BUT in his opinion the reason for that is the owners were all people who have had their torts for many years and have always hibernated them for far longer than the suggested 12 weeks. Whereas the fridge method is a fairly new procedure therefore owners who use this method would also know only to hibernate for 12 weeks. He said in his opinion as long as the 12 week rule is followed both methods are equally safe from this. Whilst Im not quoting him word for word the above is my understanding of his reply

helen1 · 13-11-2009, 05:36 PM

With all due respect to the vet...I suggest that if this is mainly occuring in box hibernated tortoises who have been hibernated so for many years...that it is not the length of the hibernation per se but the temperatures which the people are letting it get to and the fact that they may well not be checking the weights or for signs of weeing...

I am purely led by temperatures in my brick outhouse...it may be 21 weeks it may be 18 weeks.
My male ibera has hibernated with me for 40yrs...he is 3kg in weight and, according to records I keep, he has not lost more than 12g in the last 4 hibernations...

The one year he woke up from hibernation unwell and with anorexia was when I had hibernated him in the loft when we moved to our current vicarage 15yrs ago. At the time I did not check temps...I was nowhere near as clued up...I researched this at the time and became aware of the importance of the temps. He fully recovered with some TLC and was soon back to his chunky self...I guess thsi Vicarage is warmer than some of the piles we have lived in...
I would like him also to qualify that the 12 week rule is as unsafe in box hibernating as the 21 week...if temps are not right. Temperature is the main issue here.
I know many keepers who hibernate for longer than 12 weeks in the fridge.

Cav3 · 13-11-2009, 07:31 PM

Mmmm well I'm not qualified to answer any of that but my understanding of what Mark was saying at the meeting Dave mentioned is the tortoises that were suffering with this were all 30+ years old and had been hibernated in exactly the same way every year without any previous problems, it's the accumalative of all this which may cause the problem, bad summer plus long hibernation year on year and then bosh suddenly we have a problem.
Possibly like someone who smokes, they light up that cigarette 20 times every day without any problems and then suddenly one day 30 years down the line they wake up with lung cancer and say it can't be that cigarette because I've been doing it all these years. Just because we don't show immediate signs of I'll health it doesn't automatically mean smokings good for us and in the same way a tortoise not showing ill effects from long hibernations doesnt neccasarily mean it's good for them either or that they won't have problems with it in years to come.

Kirkie · 13-11-2009, 08:40 PM

I've read through this again and I must apologise if it looks like I've linked the degredation of the immune system to Mark's reasoning of the 12 week hibernation. These were two seperate pieces of information, I really don't want to second guess Mark any further as bad or misleading information can be fatal where hibernation is concerned.

Cav1 , thanks for checking with Mark. I think your last post nailed it.

Julia · 16-11-2009, 09:45 PM

I just read in another forum that THBs generally hibernate 4-5 months whereas THHs only 3-4 months. Has anyone heard this one before?
Julia

13-11-2009, 05:15 PM	#11
Cav3 Member Incubating Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Kent Posts: 155	Dave and Helen, Mark (the vet who gave the hibernation talk Dave is refering to) happens to be my tortoise vet; I saw him today and asked him whether the post hibernation anorexia he was refering to was more prominent in the box or fridge method. His answer was the cases he dealt with this year were all box methods BUT in his opinion the reason for that is the owners were all people who have had their torts for many years and have always hibernated them for far longer than the suggested 12 weeks. Whereas the fridge method is a fairly new procedure therefore owners who use this method would also know only to hibernate for 12 weeks. He said in his opinion as long as the 12 week rule is followed both methods are equally safe from this. Whilst Im not quoting him word for word the above is my understanding of his reply __________________

13-11-2009, 05:36 PM	#12
helen1 Senior Member Sub Adult Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: NORTH WEST Posts: 1,977	With all due respect to the vet...I suggest that if this is mainly occuring in box hibernated tortoises who have been hibernated so for many years...that it is not the length of the hibernation per se but the temperatures which the people are letting it get to and the fact that they may well not be checking the weights or for signs of weeing... I am purely led by temperatures in my brick outhouse...it may be 21 weeks it may be 18 weeks. My male ibera has hibernated with me for 40yrs...he is 3kg in weight and, according to records I keep, he has not lost more than 12g in the last 4 hibernations... The one year he woke up from hibernation unwell and with anorexia was when I had hibernated him in the loft when we moved to our current vicarage 15yrs ago. At the time I did not check temps...I was nowhere near as clued up...I researched this at the time and became aware of the importance of the temps. He fully recovered with some TLC and was soon back to his chunky self...I guess thsi Vicarage is warmer than some of the piles we have lived in... I would like him also to qualify that the 12 week rule is as unsafe in box hibernating as the 21 week...if temps are not right. Temperature is the main issue here. I know many keepers who hibernate for longer than 12 weeks in the fridge. __________________ I CARE FOR TORTS

13-11-2009, 07:31 PM	#13
Cav3 Member Incubating Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Kent Posts: 155	Mmmm well I'm not qualified to answer any of that but my understanding of what Mark was saying at the meeting Dave mentioned is the tortoises that were suffering with this were all 30+ years old and had been hibernated in exactly the same way every year without any previous problems, it's the accumalative of all this which may cause the problem, bad summer plus long hibernation year on year and then bosh suddenly we have a problem. Possibly like someone who smokes, they light up that cigarette 20 times every day without any problems and then suddenly one day 30 years down the line they wake up with lung cancer and say it can't be that cigarette because I've been doing it all these years. Just because we don't show immediate signs of I'll health it doesn't automatically mean smokings good for us and in the same way a tortoise not showing ill effects from long hibernations doesnt neccasarily mean it's good for them either or that they won't have problems with it in years to come. __________________ Last edited by Cav3; 13-11-2009 at 07:36 PM.

13-11-2009, 08:40 PM	#14
Kirkie Senior Member Adult Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,887	I've read through this again and I must apologise if it looks like I've linked the degredation of the immune system to Mark's reasoning of the 12 week hibernation. These were two seperate pieces of information, I really don't want to second guess Mark any further as bad or misleading information can be fatal where hibernation is concerned. Cav1 , thanks for checking with Mark. I think your last post nailed it.

16-11-2009, 09:45 PM	#15
Julia Member Egg Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: South West London Posts: 73	I just read in another forum that THBs generally hibernate 4-5 months whereas THHs only 3-4 months. Has anyone heard this one before? Julia

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