'Hibernation' at various temperatures

[Levi]

Originally Posted by Kirkie

Get hold of a copy of "life in a shell". Aquatic turtles can survive anoxic conditions in hibernation. Thats total oxygen depletion. The'y don't look too, but they can. Rom summerised it nicely a few pages back.

He sure did.

More here for those with out Mr Jackson's book.

Hibernating without oxygen: physiological adaptations of the painted turtle
Donald C Jackson

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2290531/

This article is possibly a little easier to understand.

http://curiousnature.info/A1-PaintedTurtle.htm

Rom I agree it is amazing how painted turtles survive under such conditions.

But I very much doubt tortoises have to go to those lengths to survive hibernation, they maybe very little oxygen readily available to a hibernating tort underground, but then I doubt they need that much to keep their system going, summer or winter. (underground)
I take it there would be enough air movement to stop the build up of CO2 and supply further oxygen.
I'm sure we worry about Oxygen, CO2 levels in their fridges far to much, but best to be safe than sorry.

On this subject of Oxygen, I remember reading about a tortoise dredged from the bottom of the garden pond after a couple of days of being missing. (or longer)
I believe it looked very dead at first but eventually fully recovered ? I think that has happened a number of times, (but to different tortoises of course).

[romski]

Originally Posted by Kirkie

We haven't mentioned the role of cloacal bursae in turtles yet and there was a piece posted on here about musk turtle breathing via the tongue (well extracting oxygen from water via the tongue whilst submerged).

Dave I dont know if it was one of Jacksons' earlier papers or one of his students that showed that the greatest extra pulminary oxygen contribution came from surface and skin exchange. He also showed that those animals that had the best ability for extrapulminary exchange also had the weakest capability for anoxia tolerance. So that sliders (RES) which are great at staying underwater that is well oxygenated, are crap in surviving anoxic water. Thats why in recent iced up winters Trachemys (sliders) died in numbers. Painteds on the other hand did just great.

This has been a very constructive exchange between us.
But hey guys is there any real knowledge if torts have the ability to manage some level of anoxia whilst under the soil????? Do they need to??
Or is this a really good subject for a lucky PhD. candidate?

Kezai 911 over the years hibernation/brumation strategies have been devised that are pretty certain to end up with a living tortoise in the spring. This debate has been about why and what actually may happen for real. Brumation and hibernation are just names given by humans. Torts dont care what you call it. What is certain that the right temps for the right time provide the healthiest animals in the spring.
Despite or as a result of a huge amount of controversy and some heated forum exchanges, The Tortoise Trust has worked up a hibernation statement for tortoises that has a great deal of merit. Have a look at it.

I dont think we know enough yet but at least we are asking questions and balancing the opinions. Some of us may not agree or are at at the edge of the debate but at least we are thinking with open minds. No one is right nor wrong, but be sure we are moving in the right direction.

Thank you
Rom

[Alan1]

I think some folk have misinterpreted or misunderstood my OP, some people thought I was hibernating my torts at 20-35c but what I meant was that I don't hibernate them, just keep them at that temperature like some people keep them at 10-15c and others at 3-7c.
I was really just saying that whatever temperature they are kept at they act accordingly and if they are hibernating (or whatever you like to call it) they are really just living their lives at different speeds during that spell, depending on what temperature you are keeping them at. That is what I meant by hibernating mine at 35c, just hibernating them at full speed

we have somehow gone from that to the bottom of the atlantic ocean

carry on

[romski]

Hey guys we are so engrossed inthis that we are cross posting.

Luv it!

Rom

[romski]

Originally Posted by Levi

He sure did.

More here for those with out Mr Jackson's book.

Hibernating without oxygen: physiological adaptations of the painted turtle
Donald C Jackson

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2290531/

This article is possibly a little easier to understand.

http://curiousnature.info/A1-PaintedTurtle.htm

.

Thanks for the two references. Ive had time to read them now.

Id not seen the first paper but it seems to have a repeat content of several others produced by him. The bit about total energy levels depression at 3c was new to me and its not mentioned in the book either.

The second is a wonderfully written article that tells the story without technical jargon. Its just a shame the hobby was not made aware of it when it was produced.

I have book-marked it and will use it as a reference in the future.

Rom