I am worried

[Helen M]

Originally Posted by pagan queen

Yes they do go out when the weather is nice enough. Living in the south east we get a lot of sun.

I just wanted to make it clear to anyone who is reading that they don't get confused and think that D3 supplementation alone is being presented as a viable option as it certainly is not at this moment in time.

Helen xx

[pagan queen]

If you read post 13 I do say there should be an outdoor enclosure for the summer.

Originally Posted by Helen M

I just wanted to make it clear to anyone who is reading that they don't get confused and think that D3 supplementation alone is being presented as a viable option as it certainly is not at this moment in time.

Helen xx

[Helen M]

Originally Posted by pagan queen

If you read post 13 I do say there should be an outdoor enclosure for the summer.

I just wanted to point out some of the many holes when relying on supplements or pellet feeds for reaching the required dosage of vitamins in tortoises. D3 levels in hatchling and juvenile animals aren't to be messed about with. Therefore I think it best to allow them to have the same choice as they would in the wild where they would be regulating their intake through sunlight and not through their diet.

Helen xx

[pagan queen]

It's all a matter of opinion though and mine is that they don't need extra lighting if fed correctly. Both my torts are doing fine and their shells are smooth too.

Originally Posted by Helen M

I just wanted to point out some of the many holes when relying on supplements or pellet feeds for reaching the required dosage of vitamins in tortoises. D3 levels in hatchling and juvenile animals aren't to be messed about with. Therefore I think it best to allow them to have the same choice as they would in the wild where they would be regulating their intake through sunlight and not through their diet.

Helen xx

[Helen M]

Originally Posted by pagan queen

It's all a matter of opinion though and mine is that they don't need extra lighting if feed correctly. Both my torts are doing fine and their shells are smooth too.

But in this case we're talking about 2 tortoises that possibly haven't had access to UV for some time. This increases the risk of MBD which is very dangerous. Russian tortoises are notoriously hard to grow smooth and although hardy I don't think its suitable to be recommending that lighting isn't necessary in this case.

Helen xx

[pagan queen]

They are under a year old, how long can they have been without UV? They have been fed on pellets so should be fine without UV. Like I said it's only my opinion, you have your opinion, they differ, it's up to the person with the torts to decide which way they choose.

Originally Posted by Helen M

But in this case we're talking about 2 tortoises that possibly haven't had access to UV for some time. This increases the risk of MBD which is very dangerous. Russian tortoises are notoriously hard to grow smooth and although hardy I don't think its suitable to be recommending that lighting isn't necessary in this case.

Helen xx

[Helen M]

Originally Posted by pagan queen

They are under a year old, how long can they have been without UV? They have been fed on pellets so should be fine without UV. Like I said it's only my opinion, you have your opinion, they differ, it's up to the person with the torts to decide which way they choose.

I think what I've enbolded here is the key point I'm making. The first year of a hatchlings life is crucial to its survival and future growth, they'll be putting down a lot of calcium and a framework for how they will continue to grow, therefore a poor start very likely equals a poor outcome in terms of growth and mortality.

I would suggest to the OP that they cover their bases well to give their tortoises the best chance of reversing any possible deficiencies that have occured as a result of the possible poor husbandry they have experienced at the petshop they were sold or possibly before even then.

Yes I'm expressing an opinion but I think it inappropriate to be recommending that key sources of D3 be withheld in favour of methods that are A Possibly dangerous as D3 supplements can be quite dangerous in terms of their high concentration to young animals that are probably calcium deficient, and B Your own setup and situation is very different to the one that the OP is in with their own tortoises.

Helen xx

[pagan queen]

I'm not saying you are wrong, but I'm not wrong either. The OP asked me what my methods were and I told them. Key sources of D3 are not being withheld, the torts have pellets which are a complete diet so they are getting all they need.

[Helen M]

Originally Posted by pagan queen

I'm not saying you are wrong, but I'm not wrong either. The OP asked me what my methods were and I told them. Key sources of D3 are not being withheld, the torts have pellets which are a complete diet so they are getting all they need.

But you don't know that. No one knows that. Its one of the biggest problems with pellets, they are in no real terms complete. They may be enriched with multiple vitamins such as D3 but you really have no idea how much, as the packet will only have approximate values and vitamins will decay in levels quite quickly over time from when you first bought them.

By giving your opinion on not using lighting you are saying it is suitable to withhold it despite it being a valuable and appropriate source of D3, one which the animals themselves can control through their own natural behaviours. Which isn't at all possible with dietary D3 as most tortoise species don't encounter it regularly in their diet.

Helen xx

[pagan queen]

I am not getting into the whole pellet debate, there is research to say they are complete and zoos use them effectively. It is suitable to not use UV lighting as long as another source of D3 is provided. There is no real evidence to say otherwise.

Originally Posted by Helen M

But you don't know that. No one knows that. Its one of the biggest problems with pellets, they are in no real terms complete. They may be enriched with multiple vitamins such as D3 but you really have no idea how much, as the packet will only have approximate values and vitamins will decay in levels quite quickly over time from when you first bought them.

By giving your opinion on not using lighting you are saying it is suitable to withhold it despite it being a valuable and appropriate source of D3, one which the animals themselves can control through their own natural behaviours. Which isn't at all possible with dietary D3 as most tortoise species don't encounter it regularly in their diet.

Helen xx