What could happen if the tortoises weren't hibernated?

[EJ]

It's totally up to you. One opinion is based on fact the other is based on theory. Your best course of action would be to do a little research outside of the different turtle and tortoise groups and form your own conclusion.

As usual there really is no right or wrong... it all depends.

Originally Posted by Nickynoodles

Oops, conflicting opinions here - which is right then?

[cotley]

I suppose difficulty in keepers agreeing is the fact that there is variation in the wild - as stated above, in some locales, tortoises that would otherwise hibernate don't - as for lifespan there's probably too many variables to make any 'scientific' study of wild populations?

I guess it will be an issue given current 'global warming' concerns - if people in UK are resorting to fridge's etc because cellars etc are no longer cold enough, I wonder if wild populations hibernation patterns have been observed to be disrupted elsewhere in Europe?

[swad1000]

Originally Posted by EJ

Absolutely nothing happens to the tortoise if it is not hibernated. Hibernation is the tortoises response to a drop in temperature. It's metabolism slows down as a result of th drop in temperature because it is a reptile and it's metabolism is totally dependent on temperature. Hibernation is a means to survive unfavorable conditions. If you provide constant favorable conditions, the tortoise will not be inclined to hibernate and proceed on its merry way without any physical harm.

As evidence of this you will find that tortoises with a wide enough range like T. graeca, Leopards and Redfoots will hibernate in the cooler part of their range and not hibernate in the warmer part of their range. There is no correlation to size and the different populations depending on if they hibernate or not.

Some belive that if you don't hibernate a tortoise that normally hibernates it will live a shorter life... there is not way in the world to prove this.

Do you have any evidence to back up this statement?

Not sure about reptiles, but several other species of animals that naturally hibernate, that are prevented from doing so in captivity have severly shortened life cycles due to not hibernating.

You say there is no way of not proving this is the case in captive tortoises, there is its just the study could possibly take a century to complete, so to say that there is no harm in not hibernating tortoises is potentially very damaging, and unless you have kept tortoises for the last 100 years and have some way of backing up your claims that it has no ill effects, you should not post such potentially damaging statement.

Its a natural cycle that the tortoises have adapted to over several million years, yet you say not to hibernate is not damaging, exactly how long has your study been conducted over to support this?

[kirst16]

When i got mine, several years back i was told NOT to hibernate from the vet, "its not like the old blue peter days now you know..." so the first year i didnt, put it right out my head. But i found that my tort knew himself when it was time, slowed down stopped eating etc and has always been away for the 8 weeks ish. Iv had him 16 years now so guess he knows best.

[EJ]

I gave 3 examples where both normally hibernating species do not hibernate and non hibernating species do hibernate to illustrate my point.

Also there are many tortoise keepers who can testify that they've never hibernated tortoises they keep which hibernate in the wild.

You can do more harm in recommending hibernating than not hibernating. All you have to do is read through all the posts on this very list that deal with the topic...

'My tortoise is sick so I'm not going to hibernate it this year... Help, my tortoise won't go down for it's winter nap... I had to pull my tortoise out of hibernation early... ' Come March or April, count the posts on all the lists which start 'I'm so devistated my tortoise died in hibernation...'

Now, Check out the posts where 'help, I decided not to hibernate my tortoise and it's doing great... what should I do?'

The choice to hibernate is your choice and not the tortoises. If it had a choice in the wild, it would not hibernate as proven by the previous populations listed.

My personal studies on this are about as extensive and complete as anyones. It's my opinion which is just as valid as anyone elses except that I'm showing the reader by the examples given that hibernation is most likely not a necessity and it is an adaptation.

You keyed onto a very important point that I seem to have trouble getting across... Tortoises are reptiles and not mammals. They do not truly hibernate as mammals do.

Also, I don't say not to hibernate. I say it is not a necessity...

Originally Posted by swad1000

Do you have any evidence to back up this statement?

Not sure about reptiles, but several other species of animals that naturally hibernate, that are prevented from doing so in captivity have severly shortened life cycles due to not hibernating.

You say there is no way of not proving this is the case in captive tortoises, there is its just the study could possibly take a century to complete, so to say that there is no harm in not hibernating tortoises is potentially very damaging, and unless you have kept tortoises for the last 100 years and have some way of backing up your claims that it has no ill effects, you should not post such potentially damaging statement.

Its a natural cycle that the tortoises have adapted to over several million years, yet you say not to hibernate is not damaging, exactly how long has your study been conducted over to support this?

[kirst16]

not sure if i would be happy to FORCE into hibernation though with the wind down..... its something iv never had to do. as said iv seen the signs and mine has more or less told me. But like ed says i have heard many times that it causes no harm if NOT hibernated also.

[helen1]

off topic
I have asked this on here before...but had no answer....

I have read various studies done on mammals...which note what happens to groups of animals in the wild when climate/habitat etc changes. I think it came down to three or four categories. However simplistically speaking there are those that move on to find a new area suitable to them...those that die....and those that adapt.

Mt question...are tortoises adaptors...and can someone please point me to any studies done on this.

Thank you[

[Laraine]

Tortoises must adapt, after all so many are taken from the wild each year and end up as pets in countries around the world. In the wild, over the centuries there has been changes to the climate and the environment, and there are still tortoises. But I am sure there are species that have died out and we will never know what they were like.

[EJ]

Don't you think I would have thrown that up here if there were any studies to support my point. You are basically asking what I'm saying.

From a common sense standpoint if you look a climatic changes in yearly cycles you would see that tortoises do not hibernate on a set time period. If it is a long winter they are down for the whole time. If there are warm days they usually come out. If it is a short winter, they will come out.

In the case of the Leopard tortoise and Redfoot tortoise... They hibernate in the southern part of their range. Now consider the odd cold snap in those contries where tortoises normally do not hibernate... do they die? I don't think so. They adapt.

Originally Posted by helen1

off topic
I have asked this on here before...but had no answer....

I have read various studies done on mammals...which note what happens to groups of animals in the wild when climate/habitat etc changes. I think it came down to three or four categories. However simplistically speaking there are those that move on to find a new area suitable to them...those that die....and those that adapt.

Mt question...are tortoises adaptors...and can someone please point me to any studies done on this.

Thank you[

[helen1]

Exactly Ed....they must adapt...the point I was trying to make.