The BCG

[EJ]

I got 1/4 through reading this and then remembered that we did speak about this at the meeting.

I reading that the gist of your complaint is that the general membership is not being kept in the loop as to the actions being taken by the BCG... is that correct?

I'm also wondering why there is not a provision to replace any of those in charge of the BCG. Isn't the BCG a democratic organization with elections and all?

Originally Posted by romski

Ed,
I am a proud member of the BCG, I did see your talk and wish it had gone on longer. I was the person that circulated slides at the Spring AGM. I circulated them in my nominated agenda slot on the subject of CARAPAX. Its not unusual to circulate additional information during such occasions. Many of the committee were unaware of the data presented. The President thanked me for the new data and asked for it to be validated. Those slides were compiled with contributions and corrections from many, including ; Anders Rhodin, Alexander Pieh, Jarmo Perala and Mark webb. Extracts from Holger Vetters book were also included. Data from the Charities commission was also used. What was presented was well prepared and scrutinised as much as reasonably possible. A number of people checked the data.

Oh and by the way check this out.
http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk...idiaryNumber=0

I have had no answer to why, at the end of 2009 they have not submitted their annual returns for 2008. Nearly 50 days late.

Taking a personal view of the evidence is not actually difficult. I was able to have an exchange with someone that was in court during the procedings and get their direct view.
When the court met in spring and Dr.Ballasina was asked to vacate the premises Dr.M Zuffi a very well known and respected Zoologist from Pisa University was nominated as technical adviser. Speak to him, he has a similar story.

My links also take you to the local community summary. You will note that in 2005 they took action against CARAPAX for posting misleading information on their site and doing same on TV. Their report aligns also.

Too many stories align, the only exception is that information generated by CARAPAX. In the end our views dont matter, the courts have decided and in the civil case they have sequestered the land and in the criminla case given Dr. Ballasina and his wife a 6 month suspended prison sentence and a 10,000 Euro fine. Thats all in the press cuttings.

BUT

Thats not our gripe, as there is nothing that can be done now. Legally the money donated and animals delivered are long gone and there will be no recourse to the members.

Our gripe is that OUR BCG management is stating that because of advice from the CARAPAX lawyers nothing can be told to the membership.

That Ed, is gowno. You will be aware of the recent murder trial in Italy where a Washington girl was involved, You will be aware that their laws on data exchange are so different to ours. Why the heck then, are the BCG taking advice from lawyers that have differing legal values to ours in the UK. And are paid for by CARAPAX/RANA to look after CARAPAX/RANA interests.

Most of the membership dont even know the extent of the problem. AND up until spring the BCG were still advertising CARAPAX as an appeal.

We know what the truth is we just want honesty from the committee.

We the membership just need to be part of the deal, not talked down to by folks that are losing the respect of our community.

For those that dont know, Paul was ejected because he was too persistent with his questions and for circulating unauthorised pamphlets at the AGM. Patently they kicked him out unfairly and based on incorrect accusations.

They will have a lot of questions to answer. Please join the BCG and come to the AGM.

Please continue keeping keep this dicussion objective and clinical.

Thanks

Rom

[boxman]

Along with geomyda, I had my membership removed for speaking my mind about CARAPAX. This was after my wife resigned as BCG treasurer over the same issue.
I developed and ran the terrapin sanctuary at 'Secret world' Burnham on sea for several years. My experience gave empirical data on the effectiveness of introducing tank kept terrapins to a semi-wild pond environment. Basically, losses could be expected to be high, about 20% or more p.a. Scale this up from 100 terrapins to the 4,000 at CARAPAX, and losses would cause an environmental disaster from corpses in the lake. I made this quite clear in a letter to the BCG conservation officer in 2002. High profile spending took the place of common sense however.
Well, the chickens have come home to roost, and the BCG main committee cannot find a stone large enough to hide under. No sympathy from me.

My name with them is of course mud. What takes my breath away however is the fact that the Gloucestershire group '3 county tortoises', who have raised thousands for real and sensible turtle constervation projects, and who run large health checks for the public across the West Midlands, are not allowed to advertise in the BCG newsletter simply because I am a member of their group!
Notice that the BCG have broken charity commission rules by not publishing a deadline date for nominations for voting-in committee members. Only the incumbents get to be on the ballot paper. As the general membership are being kept in the dark as to the chaos and waste at the top, they will happily vote in those on the form. They are basically voting for a rather good newsletter, which is all they know of the BCG.
This year's AGM has been suddenly moved to a date on which I and any member of the 3 counties group cannot attend, owing to a health check. Interesting that this happened AFTER we published dates for this event.
When I say 'I' of course, it is because the BCG CANNOT hold a closed AGM. Members of the public are allowed to attend and observe, despite what they have said in the newsletter.
I wonder if this post will be heard.........
boxman

[gtm]

Originally Posted by EJ

I got 1/4 through reading this and then remembered that we did speak about this at the meeting.

I reading that the gist of your complaint is that the general membership is not being kept in the loop as to the actions being taken by the BCG... is that correct?

I'm also wondering why there is not a provision to replace any of those in charge of the BCG. Isn't the BCG a democratic organization with elections and all?

In ideal world the 'guilty parties' (to my mind there are 3 of them) would easily be removed but what boxman says in his post is unfortunately correct. I've no doubt the AGM has been moved to april in order to stifle debate on the the 'le affaire Carapax'. Whats more it'll work. I can't make it & many others will be unable to as well.

The officer ballot 'gambit' is unbelievably shabby & illegal & again I have a pretty shrewd idea who is responsible.

The fact is the BCG has been run by the same 2 people for the past decade. Their 'leadership' is moribund & the group as a whole seems to have lost touch with it's original purpose.

The whole association with Carapax & Ballasina has been a disaster - 100's of RES (who the BCG were responsible for) sent to their doom, £40,000 + given to a fantasist & now convicted criminal. Why? I'm afraid it has alot to do with the personal friendship that several members of the committee have with Ballasina. They seem to have forgotten that the charitable object of the BCG is the welfate of chelonia rather than their mates.

[Geomyda]

I would like to express a vote of thanks to Sarah and her admin staff at Shelled Warriors for providing not only the opportunity for members of the British Chelonia Group to discuss important issues but for also providing the source information which has so deliberately deleted by the Editor of the British Chelonia Group from their own web site. An example of the sort of things deleted in the last few months follows:-- Please note this original post was signed by Anne Rowberry the elected Conservation officer of the BCG, in the BCG's own post, before it was so deliberately taken down her signature had been removed many months ago!
07-02-2009, 06:05 PM
Here: http://www.britishcheloniagroup.org....eals/index.htm


The CARAPAX centre, (located in the Tuscan hills in Italy), created in 1989 with European funds, is aiming to protect and reproduce specimens of Tortoises from the Mediterranean basin. The Visitors Centre of 15Ha, with a nature reserve of 35Ha, has already succeeded in saving thousands of reptiles and thousands of tortoises have been returned to their natural environment in Tunisia, Morocco, France, Greece and Italy.

At the CARAPAX biological station, scientific research takes place in the fields of ecology, population dynamics, botany, veterinary research, ethnology and genetics. Several valuable scientific papers and books have been published as a result. Many turtles have been rehomed in Tuscany through the BCG airlift to CARAPAX. This initiative, run for almost ten years so effectively by the BCG red eared Terrapin subcommittee team has enabled many unwanted turtles to have the opportunity to live out their days in a safe, natural environment, cared for by Donato Ballasina and his dedicated staff. The BCG also helped to fund the new take Louisiana specifically designed for these turtles.

Donato Ballasina, Director of CARAPAX, has again asked for our help; this time it is for the tortoises in his care. There is a pressing need to have a new greenhouse in which to house the hatchlings from the species; T.h. hermanni, T.h. boettgeri, T.h.pelopponesica, T.h. hercegovinensis and Testudo graeca graeca, T.g.ibera, T.g. Whitei as well as Testudo marginata and Testudo kleinmanni.

The weather and age has taken its toll on a 15 year old wooden nursery for hatchlings and young tortoises, and the structure has been demolished. In order to continue to provide a positive environment for young hatchlings a new 'glasshouse' at the heart of the centre is planned.


The proposed Nursery for Hatchling Tortoises

The plans for the new housing have been drawn up:

There are 2 sides; both with 8 separate compartments.

The left side will host some 250 400 hatchlings of Testudo hermanni hermanni from areas of Central Italy.

The right side will host hatchlings of more Southern forms of Testudo: Testudo hermanni boettgeri, Testudo hermanni hercegovinensis, Testudo hermanni hermanni from the Islands Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica plus Testudo marginata and T. weisingeri.

A third wing, which will be completely separate, will host hatchlings and sub adult forms of Testudo graeca: T.g.graeca, T.g.terrestris, T.g. nabeulensis, T.g. whitei, all present already in CARAPAX and in urgent need of the protection of a nursery.

The cost will be quite high: the basic nursery will cost some 23,000 Euros, while the extra Testudo graeca greenhouse will be an additional 8,000 Euros.

It is important that the structure is durable and the firm who supplied the aluminium greenhouse in 1990 have been selected. (Members may remember the greenhouse supplied with help from funds raised by the BCG in 1990 which is still in full use, housing the Emys orbicularis).

We are hoping you will be able to contribute towards this cost. The BCG is hoping to raise at least £6000 towards this project.

If you like you can make a donation when you renew your membership by adding the amount you wish to donate to the form or you can send a separate donation by cheque.

Please make the cheque out to the British Chelonia Group specifying that you want the money to go to the 2009 Conservation Appeal and send this to the:

Membership Secretary BCG, PO Box 1460, Bedworth, CV12 9ZW

And thankyou on behalf of the CARAPAX hatchlings

Anne Rowberry - Conservation Officer

[Geomyda]

In my last post, I should have appended the following:

Henry-flash08-02-2009, 07:32 AM
A very worthy cause, I will be donating!

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fantapants08-02-2009, 10:31 AM
i have already donated, when my membership was recently renewed.a very good cause indeed.

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Kirkie08-02-2009, 10:36 AM
A great cause , I've been meaning to join the BCG for some time this looks like the time. I do wish someone would drag them into the modern age and update their website so you can join and donate online tho.

What's T.h.pelopponesica by the way? That's a new one on me.

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egyptiandan6408-02-2009, 02:11 PM
Dave,
There is a geneticly distinct population of Hermanns in the southwest corner of the Peloponnese peninsula. I have not seen any paper or peer review of the proposed subspecies, so technically it's not valid yet.
It I think has been discussed here, so if you search the scientific name something should come up.

Danny

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Kirkie08-02-2009, 02:24 PM
Thanks Dan. Hope you've got you "How to Identify" pictures in production

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egyptiandan6408-02-2009, 03:23 PM
Here you go Dave It took a while to find it as the BCG spelt it wrong
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Te...nni?uselang=de

Danny

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sandy08-02-2009, 04:04 PM
I think you will find Dave that the BCG is totally run by volunteers, who give up their spare time to do the things they do now. So all things take a lot longer. They all work extreemly hard coping with what they do already. I know I spoke to Mary, and she said they hope to have the new care sheets out soon, which to me is more important than doing things on line If you want to help out some how I am sure they would appreciate it

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tortydat08-02-2009, 04:16 PM
Thanks for that Sandy we can always do with help! Thanks also Sarah for putting the details of our appeal in such detail on SW. The majority of the Committee do have very busy jobs and lives and we all do our best!

Mary

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sandy08-02-2009, 04:33 PM
Your welcome Mary, I know first hand how hard you and Anne work. Just keep it up
And hopefully you might get some new younger blood into the BCG. Not that your not young at heart Mary

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sarah08-02-2009, 05:13 PM
Thanks for that Sandy we can always do with help! Thanks also Sarah for putting the details of our appeal in such detail on SW. The majority of the Committee do have very busy jobs and lives and we all do our best!

Mary

Shelled Warriors is 100% behind the BCG i have been a member on and off for over 11 years!!!
Please feel free Mary to put any articals or apeals about the BCG on Shelled Warriors.

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anna m08-02-2009, 06:44 PM
I'm getting completely confused. I'm a member of BCG and thought this year we were raising money for the Asian Appeal. Like last year. Have I got it wrong? I did send my donation in with my renewal

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Geomyda08-02-2009, 08:58 PM
As a member of the BCG for many years, I regret to say that I really do not think this project has been correctly researched.
CARAPAX, has done some good work, in the past, but in this matter there are some serious questions that need answers:
1, In December 2006, a group of T hermani boettgeri were taken from captivity in Belgium and relocated into the wild in Greece. Did this comply with IUCN guidelines?
2, Threads on German Forums have suggested that captive bred Testudo spp hatchlings are donated to CARAPAX, with the promise that they will be released into the wild. - Again, are the parents of these Tortoises originating from known localities in the wild?
3. It clearly states, in the 2009 Conservation appeal, that "CARAPAX has succeeded in saving thousands of reptiles, and thousands of Tortoises and has returned these to their natural environment in Tunisia, Morocco, France, Greece, and Italy".
Where is the evidence of these repatriations, and once again do they comply with the guidelines laid down by the IUCN?
These are serious misgivings, that should be investigated ahead of further financial support.

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[EJ]

I'm still trying to get my head wrapped around this deal.

One more time... donating to CARAPAX was a mistake. I think we can all agree with that.

It looks like the main problem is the politics taking part... or... actually not taking part in the BCG. I think that is the main thing that yall should be discussing and kept on point.

As mentioned earlier... I suspect there has to be some bylaws or chain of command to address the issue of members who would like to challenge the current regeme for more participation.

I can't think of a single Chelonian organization that could not get past the point of control at one time or another. It usually comes down to a handful of individuals who have to be in control and who have to have it their way. This seems to be an especially important trait among chelonian keepers because there seems to be a tendancy towards mega control freaks. This is where politics becomes important. The individuals can try to work towards a common goal of they can try to take each other down. Unfortunately... ego and personality plays a huge role.

[gtm]

Originally Posted by EJ

I'm still trying to get my head wrapped around this deal.

One more time... donating to CARAPAX was a mistake. I think we can all agree with that.

It looks like the main problem is the politics taking part... or... actually not taking part in the BCG. I think that is the main thing that yall should be discussing and kept on point.

As mentioned earlier... I suspect there has to be some bylaws or chain of command to address the issue of members who would like to challenge the current regeme for more participation.

I can't think of a single Chelonian organization that could not get past the point of control at one time or another. It usually comes down to a handful of individuals who have to be in control and who have to have it their way. This seems to be an especially important trait among chelonian keepers because there seems to be a tendancy towards mega control freaks. This is where politics becomes important. The individuals can try to work towards a common goal of they can try to take each other down. Unfortunately... ego and personality plays a huge role.

There is:- you need signatures of 10% of paid up members to call an Extraordinary General Meeting (we think about 130 / 140 people). Without access to the Members list this is virtually impossible.

[Geomyda]

Originally Posted by EJ

I'm still trying to get my head wrapped around this deal.

One more time... donating to CARAPAX was a mistake. I think we can all agree with that.

It looks like the main problem is the politics taking part... or... actually not taking part in the BCG. I think that is the main thing that yall should be discussing and kept on point.

As mentioned earlier... I suspect there has to be some bylaws or chain of command to address the issue of members who would like to challenge the current regeme for more participation.

I can't think of a single Chelonian organization that could not get past the point of control at one time or another. It usually comes down to a handful of individuals who have to be in control and who have to have it their way. This seems to be an especially important trait among chelonian keepers because there seems to be a tendancy towards mega control freaks. This is where politics becomes important. The individuals can try to work towards a common goal of they can try to take each other down. Unfortunately... ego and personality plays a huge role.

I can certainly agree with much you have said here!
Have you got any suggestions on how to effect change?
Genuinely appreciate your input.

[EJ]

Send me a copy of the BCGs bylaws. I'm sure I can offer a constructive suggestion.

Another question just popped into mind. What exactly do you want from the BCG or what do you want them to say either to you or the membership?

Originally Posted by Geomyda

I can certainly agree with much you have said here!
Have you got any suggestions on how to effect change?
Genuinely appreciate your input.

[Geomyda]

Originally Posted by EJ

Send me a copy of the BCGs bylaws. I'm sure I can offer a constructive suggestion.

Another question just popped into mind. What exactly do you want from the BCG or what do you want them to say either to you or the membership?

Copy of BCG Constitution can be obtained from the Charity Commission, at the link:http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk...idiaryNumber=0

As for the message from the BCG Committee: "TRUTH"!