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Old 29-08-2011, 08:16 PM   #21
ONielsen
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No , this beats the wild for sure ...
Here you can really study them !

http://shelledwarriors.co.uk/forum/s...ad.php?t=10195





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Originally Posted by EJ View Post
To be clear... a plant based diet is the only way to go. That is a single point of view... the one you seem to be presenting...

My point... A plant based diet is preferable if all the nutritional bases are covered... pellets are a new alternative that takes out all of the guesswork in tortoise nutrition... That covers all the currently available tortoise nutrition information... one is not better than the other... both have pitfalls... no force feeding here.

While studying tortoises in the wild provides a little insight it does just that... provides insight. It does not provide the best way to keep them in captivity. Also... A couple of weeks a year is not really an extensive study.

...and you're allowed to express that opinion... as I am allowed to express mine.
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Old 29-08-2011, 08:53 PM   #22
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Taken out of context... a common tactic among some folks.

Let me put it back in context.

I've actually learned which is how that setup came about. There are certain species like the Egyptian and Chaco tortoise... among others that do not do well outdoors through most of the year through most of the states in the US and thrive in such a set up as many experienced keepers have learned... the hard way.

It's like using pellets... their needs can be met by different means if you fully understand the animal. It is so easy to throw the animal out in the yard if you are lucky enough to live in a climate that will allow you to do so but it is a totally different thing to provide for the animal 100% from start to finish.

Oh... they are not in the wild. They are totally dependent on the keeper unless the keeper lives in their native habitat.

I get the impression that most new keepers come to this forum to learn how these animals are kept in captivity... pets.

One other btw... why not post some photos of my outdoor enclosures?

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Originally Posted by ONielsen View Post
No , this beats the wild for sure ...
Here you can really study them !

http://shelledwarriors.co.uk/forum/s...ad.php?t=10195
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Old 31-08-2011, 01:06 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EJ View Post
You've got to wonder what kind of advice you are getting when one of the first statements is that if you can't house a tortoise outdoors... don't get one.

Here's a little more objective source of information that you might find useful. It was written for Russian tortoises but it covers all Testudo...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Russian-Tort.../dp/0793828821
thx and agreed, a mixed bag of information
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Old 31-08-2011, 02:22 AM   #24
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Please don't let this scare you... passions run high on both ends of the spectrum... and all have something you can learn from.

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thx and agreed, a mixed bag of information
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Old 31-08-2011, 10:31 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EJ View Post
Taken out of context... a common tactic among some folks.

Let me put it back in context.

I've actually learned which is how that setup came about. There are certain species like the Egyptian and Chaco tortoise... among others that do not do well outdoors through most of the year through most of the states in the US and thrive in such a set up as many experienced keepers have learned... the hard way.

It's like using pellets... their needs can be met by different means if you fully understand the animal. It is so easy to throw the animal out in the yard if you are lucky enough to live in a climate that will allow you to do so but it is a totally different thing to provide for the animal 100% from start to finish.

Oh... they are not in the wild. They are totally dependent on the keeper unless the keeper lives in their native habitat.

I get the impression that most new keepers come to this forum to learn how these animals are kept in captivity... pets.

One other btw... why not post some photos of my outdoor enclosures?
Whilst keeper's want to know how to keep them in captivity , the first place to study them is in there natural environment , from this you can learn many thing's , to start with by trying to replicate there enclosure to one as close as possable to nature , Wolfgang's book has a whole chapter on this subject alone . For those of you who haven't studied wild tortoise's there a different animal than one stuck in a small bland enclosure .
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Old 31-08-2011, 10:48 PM   #26
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It's quite presumptious to believe that the average keeper can know let alone duplicate the tortoise 'natural' environment. Even the 'experienced' keeper makes a huge assumption when they say they know what the 'natural' habitat is like. Again... most researchers... serious keepers... only see a tiny snippet of the animal in the wild when they are fortunate enough to see that animal in the wild.

There are different mindsets. There are those who try to understand what the animal actually needs and there are those who try to provide what the keeper thinks they need.

In captivity... sometimes the bland enclosure is better for the survival of the animal... in captivity.



Quote:
Originally Posted by red foot marg View Post
Whilst keeper's want to know how to keep them in captivity , the first place to study them is in there natural environment , from this you can learn many thing's , to start with by trying to replicate there enclosure to one as close as possable to nature , Wolfgang's book has a whole chapter on this subject alone . For those of you who haven't studied wild tortoise's there a different animal than one stuck in a small bland enclosure .
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Old 31-08-2011, 10:59 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EJ View Post
It's quite presumptious to believe that the average keeper can know let alone duplicate the tortoise 'natural' environment. Even the 'experienced' keeper makes a huge assumption when they say they know what the 'natural' habitat is like. Again... most researchers... serious keepers... only see a tiny snippet of the animal in the wild when they are fortunate enough to see that animal in the wild.

There are different mindsets. There are those who try to understand what the animal actually needs and there are those who try to provide what the keeper thinks they need.

In captivity... sometimes the bland enclosure is better for the survival of the animal... in captivity.
Totally cannot agree , watching a wild tortoise hunt for there food can be replicated in captivity and become different animal's and actually interact with there enclosure .
Keeping any animal in a bland enclosure is even condemed by modern zoo's who now see benefit's from stimulating animal's for the well being of the animal's .
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Old 31-08-2011, 11:14 PM   #28
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That's cool... and not a surprise.

I guess you need to work with more species. Sometimes... simpler is better. Is that the only way to keep tortoises...no... it all depends. It is not black and white. Sometimes a natural environment is the way to go... sometimes a sterile environment is the only way to go with some species... and stages of species.

Quote:
Originally Posted by red foot marg View Post
Totally cannot agree , watching a wild tortoise hunt for there food can be replicated in captivity and become different animal's and actually interact with there enclosure .
Keeping any animal in a bland enclosure is even condemed by modern zoo's who now see benefit's from stimulating animal's for the well being of the animal's .
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Old 31-08-2011, 11:21 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by EJ View Post
That's cool... and not a surprise.

I guess you need to work with more species. Sometimes... simpler is better. Is that the only way to keep tortoises...no... it all depends. It is not black and white. Sometimes a natural environment is the way to go... sometimes a sterile environment is the only way to go with some species... and stages of species.
I'm done with this thread , i'm sure people can see where i'm coming from , i have better thing's to do than play tennis
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Old 31-08-2011, 11:26 PM   #30
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Typical. The thread was actually going somewhere.

It is a tennis match. There is point and counter point. Each pass draws out some information from each perspective.

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I'm done with this thread , i'm sure people can see where i'm coming from , i have better thing's to do than play tennis
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