Pre Alpin Testudo

[Kirkie]

As requested...

Lets start with an old chestnut....I've been keeping reptiles and amphibians for 30 years. I've always tried to make the captive experience as realistic to nature as possible. That’s that out of the way.

My interest in the Pre Alpin Testudo products started about four years ago via a "discussion" between Andy Highfield and Ed Pirog on the old Tortoise Trust Yahoo group. In 2006 I read Holger Vetters book on Hermanns tortoises and again, Pre Alpin was mentioned.
I became interested in the annual feeding cycles of Hermanns tortoises. The spring glut, the dry summer, the autumn plant regrowth. I noticed that my tortoises would happily forage on dried summer plants in their enclosure. Then I read Wolfgang Wegehaute’s book on Hermanns tortoises which spoke of an annual cycle and the feeding of dried plants for periods of the summer.

I've spent a couple of years allowing the outdoor enclosures to dry out and collecting dried weeds as well as preparing some of my own from fresh weeds collected in the spring. I also began adding chopped redigrass to my feeds.

I finally got hold of some Pre Alpin Testudo in March, around the time the tortoises exited hibernation. Initially I used small amounts mixed with the main diet, this was readily accepted by my Hermann’s. Come summer, I was offering Pre Alpin Testudo products as a main meal both pre soaked cobs and the dried "fibre" product. I continued to offer it right up until the tortoises entered hibernation.

I've used it as my "dry summer feed", if the product is allowed to dehydrate again, the tortoises continue to eat it. It becomes a closer replication of the dry plant, lower water content. (I like my tortoises to drink from a bowl for their water intake by the way).I also hydrates the cobs using boiling water so that a lot of the moisture evaporates away before feeding. So, I had another dry feed along with the wild plants. Since people have cottoned on to this product , its been put forward as a supplemental winter feed which is good but not why I'm using it. I want that summer feeding replication.

The pre alpin site itself explains the thinking behind the products, the Andy Highfield article

http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/dietaryfibre.html

along with the two Herrmann’s tortoise books mentioned above fill in some of the gaps.

There is a passage on the summer conditions for Hermann’s tortoises here, from Wolfgang Wegehaute

http://www.testudo-farm.de/html/life_in_the_wild.html

There are 3 (four if you count the “baby” product) Pre Alpin Testudo products explained here.

http://www.agrobs.de/en/products/Tortoises.html


I've seen some concerns voiced that the nature of this product is effectively "malnourishing" a tortoise. It is something I considered myself and as a result only use it alone during the high summer period. I recall reading years ago that someone worked out that the calorie requirement of an adult Med tortoise was something like 10 calories (I've mislaid the book in question but it was around the 10-15 calorie mark) so I don't think its likely a tortoise will starve on this diet. Although the product has an accepable Ca:P ratio of 2:1 I tend to treat it as I do other feeder plants and add supplementation as required.
Although I've only recently started using these products I can be sure that it has in no way inhibited the growth of my tortoises who have continued to gain weight and SCL as rates equal to previous years. Shell growth has been good and smooth but, it usually is.

I have two one year old T Hermanni Hermanni that have become the test bed for this product for me. They have been fed Pre Alpin since day one of my having them (aged one year), their growth has been good this year but I'm using every trick in the environment/hydration/feeding book to ensure this is the case.

One last thing and a point I think is important and often overlooked in animal care...poo.

On their old diet my tortoises never had loose faeces, now its unreal. If you've experienced a tortoise defecating in its bath and, if left, the stool disintegrates. Well if mine poo in the bath, it comes out in a solid, bound package and bobs around like a cork and does not disintegrate in contact with water. You might say that if it comes out like it's gone in what’s been taken out by the tortoise but as I said before, no obvious impact on growth so far.

Heres some lovely pictures.....



Basic Pre Alpin Testudo cob




The same cob, hydrated




Pre Alpin Testudo Fibre


Poo



More poo.



Fire away....

[NATURALIS]

The first thing that springs to mind is wow thoose dropings look the same as wild tortoise's , i like your thinking about this, like i said in an earlier post you cannot beat nature !, but you can replicate it and i feel this is the answer i've been looking for, i have ordered some of these and im convinced there the answer to feeding natural foods. Thanks for taking the time to explain !

[jonesy]

I have also been looking into this product and the results so far seem very favourable, especially if used as part of their diet. It's much better than some other pellet type foods that should not be on the shop shelves.
I am actually going to stock these products in the new year. I am placing my first order on Jan 3rd so need any orders by Jan 1st 2011 if anyone wants any. I am then hoping to carry a stock ready to post to people.
If interested just contact me.
Thanks Jonesy

[16 shells]

Look's good to me Kirkie good explanation of the product. For those using it now do you feed this every day.

[yuna1971]

I am sampling it currently, Paul . Lily is taking to it bit by bit...I think its all a matter of offering it on a daily basis , which I am doing. I wont say he eats every bit up...but seems to eat a little more each day...hell he was chasing the smell yesterday...lol. Like any type of weed that they dont like at first, in due time - they can develop a taste for it and it then can be fed more regularly. I would like to think that over the winter, he will get used to the different texture and taste more and more.
But I like the natural content too...have to say, have never seen droppings like that. Not that I graduated from the School of Poo....by any means.
Very interesting stuff Dave, thank you for posting it. Lots to digest...pardon the pun xx

[Kirkie]

Hi Rach,

You've been using this for a couple of weeks yeah? I wouldn't expect poo of that "quality" for a while. Without sounding too much like a pro biotic advert it's all about slow gut transit. Because of the size and makeup of the individual pieces, it travels slowly through the gut, the bacteria need time to work on it, break it down. Makes sense as tortoises don't chew. The size of the bite is the size it hits the gut in, small surface area for the bacteria to work on etc etc etc.

Give it a week or two, then I want poo pictures posted. haha.

By the way I forgot to mention that I've been using products by JR Farms and Mucki (I kid you not). Available from Zooplus, JR Farms do a range of indiviual dried plants like ribwort Plantain, Dandelion, milk thistle as well as mixed "herbs" (weeds) and flowers. Mucki do a nice line in dried Mallow, Rose and Cactus flowers. The packaging of these products show a 20% protein content but this is the dry percentage, water (the bulk of a plants structure) removed the percentages of the dry remainder go up.

[pagan queen]

I really like the sound of that. Off to order some.

[yuna1971]

Dave I would love to get some dried variety - of those weeds. Can you let me know the link to these retailers? This is great....Thanks! xx

[NATURALIS]

me also , sounds great

[Kirkie]

These are the JR Farms dried plants
http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/small_...jr_farms/13320
and these are the Mucki flowers
http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/small_..._treats/192242
Fill ya boots.