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Old 10-05-2011, 01:00 AM   #11
Ozric Jonathan
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I haven't seen it personally but there is a long running thread on the French forum which follows the progress of that tiny one compared to others produced by the same keeper. If its a hoax its a very long and detailed one. The hoaxer would surely be bored by now.

It's a very extreme example. I just meant they vary a great deal.
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Old 10-05-2011, 01:03 AM   #12
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They do vary a great deal... but 2g... I'm not saying it is not possible but I personally do not believe it... just an opinion.

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I haven't seen it personally but there is a long running thread on the French forum which follows the progress of that tiny one compared to others produced by the same keeper. If its a hoax its a very long and detailed one. The hoaxer would surely be bored by now.

It's a very extreme example. I just meant they vary a great deal.
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Old 10-05-2011, 01:47 AM   #13
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I took a two hour old Hercegovinensis out of the incubator this morning, weighed it (7.6 grams) gave it a drink, weighed it again (8.1grams). So the old adage of a drink, a wee or a poo making a huge difference in weight fluctuations holds up from day 1.

Ignore me, I'm still on a hatchling high.

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Old 10-05-2011, 10:57 AM   #14
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Aw....a tiny wee thing has a drink and his weight shoots up dramatically. How we can ignore you Dave when you are there at the beginning of what should be a long life?
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Old 10-05-2011, 02:13 PM   #15
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Were all going soft in our old age Jonathan.

I wanted the hatchlings to have a bit of security so I've put a layer of dried weeds throughout, on top of the substrate. Closest I could get to undergrowth. Buggers are only eating them.
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Old 11-05-2011, 06:07 PM   #16
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I weigh mine once a month and measure the ones still growing and write it on the calender then I can look back how well they are doing
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Daisy (M) 5yrs Hermanni Hermanni DOB 03/05/2008
Buddy (F) 6yrs Hermanni Hermanni DOB 2007
Marg (F) 28yrs Hermanni Hermanni DOB 1985?
Tim (M) 44yrs T.hermanni boettgeri's DOB 1969
Speedy(F) 51yrs Testudo graeca ibera DOB 1962
(Ethel)
Georgie (F) 7yrs Horsefield DOB 2005
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Old 17-05-2011, 09:40 PM   #17
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I weigh my hermanns hatchlings once a month now cos I dont want them to grow!! At last weigh in they were, at 8 months 99gm, 124gm 125gm. That sounds shocking but my mum's females are big (they all hatched every year at between 8-10gm). I dont want to wake them up now, but have measured them on the Jacksons hatchling ratio and they are perfect. They are 75% minimum weed fed with romaine if I'm short on weeds. I give them (best quality-not shop bought) pellets but only once a week and I'm cutting that back. They are as smooth as possible but I understand that pyraminding starts usually between 12-18 months so am watching them like a hawk. Dont understand how they can get overweight on weeds (I wish I could use that excuse-ha!). They eat mainly dandelions (and all that family-they like the lambs tongue?) plantain, mallow, vetch, clover, sticky bud, forget me not (not keen on them though). One of them is into flowers so loves the flowers of all of these plants and also loves pansy flowers. I am trying to widen the ratio of weeds cos they sulk if they dont have dandelions as I know they shouldnt have them every day.
The one my mum has kept is the same age but weighs 40gms but has kept it back cos it seems like a 'runt'-maybe not (although she does have sight problems which are being treeted) Her 18 month old from the only fertile egg a younger mum had the year before is nearly 300gm! (with attitude) I want mine to grow more slowly but as they are ok on the JR and I am feeding them correctly I dont see what I can do!
I dont limit weeds though and never have. I think on previous threads most people have said they dont limit weeds, although I can see the need to limit pellets etc.Steph
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Old 17-05-2011, 10:48 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim View Post
I weigh mine once a month and measure the ones still growing and write it on the calender then I can look back how well they are doing
my son has made me a table and graph on excel following the growth chart for hermanns (forget what it is called now) so i can plot it and see to what extent mine follow the growth (which hopefully will follow the average line)
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Old 18-05-2011, 02:47 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steph37 View Post
I weigh my hermanns hatchlings once a month now cos I dont want them to grow!! At last weigh in they were, at 8 months 99gm, 124gm 125gm. That sounds shocking but my mum's females are big (they all hatched every year at between 8-10gm). I dont want to wake them up now, but have measured them on the Jacksons hatchling ratio and they are perfect. They are 75% minimum weed fed with romaine if I'm short on weeds. I give them (best quality-not shop bought) pellets but only once a week and I'm cutting that back. They are as smooth as possible but I understand that pyraminding starts usually between 12-18 months so am watching them like a hawk. Dont understand how they can get overweight on weeds (I wish I could use that excuse-ha!). They eat mainly dandelions (and all that family-they like the lambs tongue?) plantain, mallow, vetch, clover, sticky bud, forget me not (not keen on them though). One of them is into flowers so loves the flowers of all of these plants and also loves pansy flowers. I am trying to widen the ratio of weeds cos they sulk if they dont have dandelions as I know they shouldnt have them every day.
The one my mum has kept is the same age but weighs 40gms but has kept it back cos it seems like a 'runt'-maybe not (although she does have sight problems which are being treeted) Her 18 month old from the only fertile egg a younger mum had the year before is nearly 300gm! (with attitude) I want mine to grow more slowly but as they are ok on the JR and I am feeding them correctly I dont see what I can do!
I dont limit weeds though and never have. I think on previous threads most people have said they dont limit weeds, although I can see the need to limit pellets etc.Steph
It's worrying how people use the Jackson Ratio as a "well its the right size for the weight so that must be ok" It just doesn't work like that(IMO). The whole idea of the jackson ratio is that it is used to work out wether a tortoise of a certain species is of the right weight and size for hibernation or not, although it can also help to identify torts that are of a low weight for their size through illness or other problems too
A hatchling Hermann's when first hatched can weigh anything from 6-7 grams when born to a wopping 16-17 grams (from my own experience) and has alot to do with size of the parents (mainly mum from personal experience). A hatchling (from many reliabl web sites) should put on no more then 1-2 grams a month for at least the first couple of year of its life to help aid smooth slow growth. So it would make sense to me that people actually worked out the correct weight of their young Hermann's by adding the 1-2 grams for every month of its life plus its hatch weight rather then going by the "Jackson Ratio Chart" as this would give a more detailed picture of wether or not they are growing too quickly or not.
Just My own opinion of course!
But maybe its some thing that someone could look into making like the Jackson ratio so members could map out the correct weight gain for their very young torts.
I have herd of several breeders now that actually give with their hatchlings when sold a chart showing the hatch weight of the tort with the expected weight gain on it so that the new owners has something to go on and try to adear too. Its a steep learning curve sometimes taking on such a young tortoise and even with the best researchand intentions in the world its still easy to run into problems........just like people do that have been keeping torts for oodles of years do occasionally too, this is because husbandry ideas are always on the change and so is feeding ideas too,some work, some don't, its all trial and error kind of
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Old 18-05-2011, 03:29 PM   #20
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The Jacksons ratio was worked out specificly for Hermans and Greeks. It is also intended to be a guide and not a specific regime.

The ratio is based on size and weight. Age does not factor in at all.

Developement is most directly dependent on temperature and nutritional input. The actual growth will depend on this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem View Post
It's worrying how people use the Jackson Ratio as a "well its the right size for the weight so that must be ok" It just doesn't work like that(IMO). The whole idea of the jackson ratio is that it is used to work out wether a tortoise of a certain species is of the right weight and size for hibernation or not, although it can also help to identify torts that are of a low weight for their size through illness or other problems too
A hatchling Hermann's when first hatched can weigh anything from 6-7 grams when born to a wopping 16-17 grams (from my own experience) and has alot to do with size of the parents (mainly mum from personal experience). A hatchling (from many reliabl web sites) should put on no more then 1-2 grams a month for at least the first couple of year of its life to help aid smooth slow growth. So it would make sense to me that people actually worked out the correct weight of their young Hermann's by adding the 1-2 grams for every month of its life plus its hatch weight rather then going by the "Jackson Ratio Chart" as this would give a more detailed picture of wether or not they are growing too quickly or not.
Just My own opinion of course!
But maybe its some thing that someone could look into making like the Jackson ratio so members could map out the correct weight gain for their very young torts.
I have herd of several breeders now that actually give with their hatchlings when sold a chart showing the hatch weight of the tort with the expected weight gain on it so that the new owners has something to go on and try to adear too. Its a steep learning curve sometimes taking on such a young tortoise and even with the best researchand intentions in the world its still easy to run into problems........just like people do that have been keeping torts for oodles of years do occasionally too, this is because husbandry ideas are always on the change and so is feeding ideas too,some work, some don't, its all trial and error kind of
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