leopards and calcium - Page 3

John · 12-01-2011, 05:37 PM

I uderstand

John · 12-01-2011, 05:42 PM

not too cut you off but the wife needs the snow shoveled,thank you for your time and knowledge hope too speak again. john

onarock · 12-01-2011, 07:04 PM

squamata, I recently got an email from richard after asking him his advice on my newly aquired 22" 50lb female leopard. EJ, maybe I can send you the same pics as I would like to know your opinion as well.

Most breeders insist you must have collecting data on the original adults, the parents must be over 20-inches, and all their babies must had double spots on their central scutes. There are plenty of G. p. pardalis in the wild which don't meet all of this criteria but that is what the hobbyist identification is. It appears that you can vaguely see what appears to be double spots on the central scutes so that is a good indication. My male pardalis came from a breeder, whose adults meet all of the criteria. My female was collected in South Africa (no location data), is only about 18 or 19 inches, and not all of her babies have double spots on the central scutes so some some breeders insist my tortoises are not G. p. pardalis.

onarock · 12-01-2011, 07:06 PM

squamata, he also wrote me this in regards to p.pardalis

What you are really looking for are tortoises from specific localities not specific subspecies. My 18-19 inch tortoise was imported from South Africa into the USA about 20 years ago and was about 6 inches at the time. I had another female that came into the USA from South Africa about 30 years ago and had the typical double spots, produced babies with double spots but never got much over 16-inches (died unexpectedly last year). When I was in South Africa I saw every variation and size of leopard tortoise you can imagine. The big G.p.pardalis looking animals come from specific locations. I have a leopard tortoise, I hatched from parents from Kenya and it is now almost 20-inches and almost identical to the "sunsethypo" leopard tortoise picture after you have returned the "Hue" to the normal setting. Color, size, and shape also depend on how the tortoise has been raised.

Sorry to muddy the waters but specific locality data is a must. What we need is a comprehensive DNA study done on leopard tortoises but so far I don't know of any study.

EJ · 12-01-2011, 07:12 PM

On wild caught animals over a few kilos... all bets are off. The juvenile markings are usually worn off by then. Most leopard tortoise keepers can just tell the difference between the 2 races but it is based on nothing more than experience. It is very difficult to put into words so that the reader could understand.

Notice I mentioned spots and peppering. I've seen single spots but they are not symetrical and did have the peppering spots. Again... this is just in the babies.

I totally agree that the collecting data is the most sure way or if the hatchlings look like the one I posted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by onarock

squamata, I recently got an email from richard after asking him his advice on my newly aquired 22" 50lb female leopard. EJ, maybe I can send you the same pics as I would like to know your opinion as well.

Most breeders insist you must have collecting data on the original adults, the parents must be over 20-inches, and all their babies must had double spots on their central scutes. There are plenty of G. p. pardalis in the wild which don't meet all of this criteria but that is what the hobbyist identification is. It appears that you can vaguely see what appears to be double spots on the central scutes so that is a good indication. My male pardalis came from a breeder, whose adults meet all of the criteria. My female was collected in South Africa (no location data), is only about 18 or 19 inches, and not all of her babies have double spots on the central scutes so some some breeders insist my tortoises are not G. p. pardalis.

onarock · 12-01-2011, 07:18 PM

Any thoughts on her. I just got her . about 22" and 50lbs

John · 12-01-2011, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onarock

squamata, he also wrote me this in regards to p.pardalis

What you are really looking for are tortoises from specific localities not specific subspecies. My 18-19 inch tortoise was imported from South Africa into the USA about 20 years ago and was about 6 inches at the time. I had another female that came into the USA from South Africa about 30 years ago and had the typical double spots, produced babies with double spots but never got much over 16-inches (died unexpectedly last year). When I was in South Africa I saw every variation and size of leopard tortoise you can imagine. The big G.p.pardalis looking animals come from specific locations. I have a leopard tortoise, I hatched from parents from Kenya and it is now almost 20-inches and almost identical to the "sunsethypo" leopard tortoise picture after you have returned the "Hue" to the normal setting. Color, size, and shape also depend on how the tortoise has been raised.

Sorry to muddy the waters but specific locality data is a must. What we need is a comprehensive DNA study done on leopard tortoises but so far I don't know of any study.

so onarock what i am getting here correct me if i'm wrong, is there could be a chance that the tort i recieved as babcocki is p. pardalis but would be hard too pass as same due too the criteria set by breeders.which was my second suspicion.another question i had was it is my uderstanding from what i have read that p.p. are darker in color than p.b. you probably both know where i got that from

John · 12-01-2011, 07:29 PM

just too clarify when i say recieved as babcocki i mean this is the tort i recieved for the babcocki price with a note stating "i think you will be quite happy with this tort" it has at no time been represented as either or by rishard i have an email out too him no response yet.when i first recieved him i was just happy with him so never thought too ask about his origin.i am no less happy now but i am curious

onarock · 12-01-2011, 07:32 PM

Ha, yes I know where you got that from. I tried to slow down the thinking on that position also and was shown the door. yes your tortoise that you recieved thinking it could be p.babcocki could be p.pardalis or a hybrid. If I am understanding richard correctly, it sounds as if p.pardalis in his etimation take on all forms, but in the traditional hobbyist opinion it is only true p.pardalis if it meets the criteria that he mentions in the email. Your coloration quote meets my understanding as well, but it sounds as that might not be set in concrete.

onarock · 12-01-2011, 07:36 PM

EJ, the picture you posted of the hatchling from Don Boyer, is that a tortoise he produced? or the Zoo?

12-01-2011, 05:37 PM	#21
John Member Incubating Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: new jersey usa Posts: 123	I uderstand

12-01-2011, 05:42 PM	#22
John Member Incubating Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: new jersey usa Posts: 123	not too cut you off but the wife needs the snow shoveled,thank you for your time and knowledge hope too speak again. john

12-01-2011, 07:04 PM	#23
onarock Member Hatched Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 327	squamata, I recently got an email from richard after asking him his advice on my newly aquired 22" 50lb female leopard. EJ, maybe I can send you the same pics as I would like to know your opinion as well. Most breeders insist you must have collecting data on the original adults, the parents must be over 20-inches, and all their babies must had double spots on their central scutes. There are plenty of G. p. pardalis in the wild which don't meet all of this criteria but that is what the hobbyist identification is. It appears that you can vaguely see what appears to be double spots on the central scutes so that is a good indication. My male pardalis came from a breeder, whose adults meet all of the criteria. My female was collected in South Africa (no location data), is only about 18 or 19 inches, and not all of her babies have double spots on the central scutes so some some breeders insist my tortoises are not G. p. pardalis.

12-01-2011, 07:06 PM	#24
onarock Member Hatched Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 327	squamata, he also wrote me this in regards to p.pardalis What you are really looking for are tortoises from specific localities not specific subspecies. My 18-19 inch tortoise was imported from South Africa into the USA about 20 years ago and was about 6 inches at the time. I had another female that came into the USA from South Africa about 30 years ago and had the typical double spots, produced babies with double spots but never got much over 16-inches (died unexpectedly last year). When I was in South Africa I saw every variation and size of leopard tortoise you can imagine. The big G.p.pardalis looking animals come from specific locations. I have a leopard tortoise, I hatched from parents from Kenya and it is now almost 20-inches and almost identical to the "sunsethypo" leopard tortoise picture after you have returned the "Hue" to the normal setting. Color, size, and shape also depend on how the tortoise has been raised. Sorry to muddy the waters but specific locality data is a must. What we need is a comprehensive DNA study done on leopard tortoises but so far I don't know of any study.

12-01-2011, 07:18 PM	#26
onarock Member Hatched Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 327	Any thoughts on her. I just got her . about 22" and 50lbs

12-01-2011, 07:29 PM	#28
John Member Incubating Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: new jersey usa Posts: 123	just too clarify when i say recieved as babcocki i mean this is the tort i recieved for the babcocki price with a note stating "i think you will be quite happy with this tort" it has at no time been represented as either or by rishard i have an email out too him no response yet.when i first recieved him i was just happy with him so never thought too ask about his origin.i am no less happy now but i am curious

12-01-2011, 07:32 PM	#29
onarock Member Hatched Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 327	Ha, yes I know where you got that from. I tried to slow down the thinking on that position also and was shown the door. yes your tortoise that you recieved thinking it could be p.babcocki could be p.pardalis or a hybrid. If I am understanding richard correctly, it sounds as if p.pardalis in his etimation take on all forms, but in the traditional hobbyist opinion it is only true p.pardalis if it meets the criteria that he mentions in the email. Your coloration quote meets my understanding as well, but it sounds as that might not be set in concrete.

12-01-2011, 07:36 PM	#30
onarock Member Hatched Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 327	EJ, the picture you posted of the hatchling from Don Boyer, is that a tortoise he produced? or the Zoo?

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