too early?

Julia · 10-11-2009, 09:40 PM

I thought this year I will leave the whole hibernation procedure to my Jess (male Hermans, 8 years, 700g), thinking that, since he is outdoors all summer, he would know when and how to prepare himself. In previous years I have always brought him in for a few weeks at the end of summer, to keep him going, but he always hated this, trying to get out of his box all the time.

Unfortunately he started winding himself down in September and has dug himself down inside his coldframe now since early October. I'm sure he is doing the right thing, but if I just leave him to it he would probably stay there now until March, or so. I'm sure this is too long for hibernating. I want to avoid any indoor compromise, but the hibernation would then be about 6 months. That must surely be too long.
What do you experienced keepers advise??
thanks
Julia

Kirkie · 10-11-2009, 11:47 PM

Hi Julia,

Dont know if this helps but I was at a talk given by a very well respected vet the other week and he was of the opinion that it is far more straight forward to wake tortoises up artificially then it is to wind them down artificially. Meaning let the tortoise make the decisions based on environment changes (as yours has done) and use artificial heat and light to wake them up. If you take the start of hibernation from the beginning of October, I'd be thinking of waking your tortoise around the end of December beginning of January. I wouldnt go much beyond that because it may still be a little above the optimum temperature for a tortoise to be in full hibernation stasis at the moment (depending on where you are, here in London its still a bit warm). I give my 7 Year olds 10-12 weeks depending on when they go down.

It won't need a grand indoor setup for a short period of time just plenty of heat and light. As the days get a bit warmer the tortoise can go out in the garden for a while once its had a warm up under the lamp. When its had enough for the day, bring him back in. Mine were going out for the day by mid March last year but again it depends where you are.

helen1 · 11-11-2009, 09:10 AM

2007 my 5 yr olds upward to 90yrs had a 21 week hibernation...naturally wound down and woke on 31st of march ....some a couple of days earlier some later..
2008....they woke up a couple of weeks earlier as it was warmer...
I have never had any problems with this period/length of hibernation.

Mine are all boxed up now....and some had been dug in at my daughters and friends for a good few weeks...

shellonia · 11-11-2009, 03:18 PM

I actually think they are much tougher and wiser than we are.Provided they have eaten well,emptied and wound down naturally they are able to sustain a surprisingly long hibernation.I'm more careful with first timers and the very elderly but I think adult tortoises in good health won't come to any harm if they have a few more weeks than'recommended'.You get to know your own animals and their habits over the years.As for refridgerated hibernation that would scare me as you hold the control but lots of people do it successfully.

Kirkie · 11-11-2009, 07:09 PM

Just as a footnote to my previous post, the vet also noted that he has seen a steady increase over the last three years of cases of post hibernation anorexia. He attributed this to the succession of sub optimal summers we have experienced in the UK. MY own view is that the conditions in the UK for the ast three years have fallen well short of those a wild tortoise would be experiencing. Not just in terms of sunshine or temperature but UV exposure. As endothermic animals, tortoises receive a high percentage of their energy requirements from the sun, food makes up a much smaller percentage of the requirement. In addition the processes which enable a tortoise to utilise minerals which allow it to live, grow and function are based on a complex interaction with ultra violet light. One bad summer not a problem, a succession of sub optimal summers, potential problem. A tortoise entering hibernation is, in my view, reacting to the environmental challenge it is faced with. It does not enter a mammalian hibernation where vast quantities of energy reserves are expennded to maintain a semblance of normal bodily function. It is unable to function at these temperatures so everything shuts down. This includes the immune system. The production of white blood cells ceases. A tortoises white blood cells die after 8 weeks so for the latter part of hibernation and during the period following hibernation it is operating virtually without an immune system. Another reason I'm erring on the side of caution by undertaking a maximum of 12 weeks hibernation this year. One great tip from the vet was to ensure that the tortoise enters hibernation not lacking for anything is to use Reptiboost solution in the water in which you bathe the tortoise during the wind down period. This will enable the tortoise to take on electrolytes and other goodies as well as the essential water. As I’ve said before if the entering and exiting from hibernation is dependent on environmental cues such as temperature, its much easier to artificially emulate the exit than it is the entry.

helen1 · 12-11-2009, 10:04 AM

Was the increase in post hibernation anoerexia in box hibernated or fridge hibernated.

Julia · 12-11-2009, 07:44 PM

Thanks for this very ineresting theory. I can imagine that the cold summer must have some influence on them. I wonder if the solution would be to offer not just a basking lamp, but also UV light in their outdoor shelter?
Anyway, it's too late for this year, and Jess is out of it all. I think I will transfer him into the fridge and check his weight reguarly, making a decison re the length of hibernation depending on his weightloss.
Julia

Kirkie · 12-11-2009, 11:37 PM

Hi Julia,

Sorry if I rattled on a bit and it was in no way intended to worry anyone, I feel that the vet raised an important point to take into consideration this year. May all our hibernations be be worry free!

Heen,

Good question, I'l see if I can find out.

helen1 · 13-11-2009, 09:54 AM

Thanks...would be interested to know...

The 8 week period...surely if you have a healthy animal...this is not an issue.....unless it is about to meet a "bug" in hibernation..

To extend that to 12 weeks only for hibernation is surely just as much a risk as 13 weeks and longer?

For the most part, most keepers are supplementing the uv..with lamps...so that would remove that problem...
Kirkie...this is not me having a go...but I have to pick things through and mull them over

Kirkie · 13-11-2009, 11:02 AM

Hi Helen,

I'm the same at mulling things over. As you may know I lost a tortoise 2 weeks into hibernation last year and have spent the time since then trying to get my head round it. The post mortem on the tortoise found that it's tissue was well hydrated, its gut was virtually empty but that it had signs of liver disease. The tortoise went into hibernation with a condition which I now believe was accelerated by the wind down and hibernation process. The fact about the immumnosuppression has kind of drawn a line under this for me.

I've always hibernated my larger tortoises for 12 weeks, it just fits the temperature range Dec-Mar I get here in London with its freaky weather

10-11-2009, 09:40 PM	#1
Julia Member Egg Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: South West London Posts: 73	too early? I thought this year I will leave the whole hibernation procedure to my Jess (male Hermans, 8 years, 700g), thinking that, since he is outdoors all summer, he would know when and how to prepare himself. In previous years I have always brought him in for a few weeks at the end of summer, to keep him going, but he always hated this, trying to get out of his box all the time. Unfortunately he started winding himself down in September and has dug himself down inside his coldframe now since early October. I'm sure he is doing the right thing, but if I just leave him to it he would probably stay there now until March, or so. I'm sure this is too long for hibernating. I want to avoid any indoor compromise, but the hibernation would then be about 6 months. That must surely be too long. What do you experienced keepers advise?? thanks Julia

10-11-2009, 11:47 PM	#2
Kirkie Senior Member Adult Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,887	Hi Julia, Dont know if this helps but I was at a talk given by a very well respected vet the other week and he was of the opinion that it is far more straight forward to wake tortoises up artificially then it is to wind them down artificially. Meaning let the tortoise make the decisions based on environment changes (as yours has done) and use artificial heat and light to wake them up. If you take the start of hibernation from the beginning of October, I'd be thinking of waking your tortoise around the end of December beginning of January. I wouldnt go much beyond that because it may still be a little above the optimum temperature for a tortoise to be in full hibernation stasis at the moment (depending on where you are, here in London its still a bit warm). I give my 7 Year olds 10-12 weeks depending on when they go down. It won't need a grand indoor setup for a short period of time just plenty of heat and light. As the days get a bit warmer the tortoise can go out in the garden for a while once its had a warm up under the lamp. When its had enough for the day, bring him back in. Mine were going out for the day by mid March last year but again it depends where you are. Last edited by Kirkie; 10-11-2009 at 11:55 PM.

11-11-2009, 09:10 AM	#3
helen1 Senior Member Sub Adult Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: NORTH WEST Posts: 1,977	2007 my 5 yr olds upward to 90yrs had a 21 week hibernation...naturally wound down and woke on 31st of march ....some a couple of days earlier some later.. 2008....they woke up a couple of weeks earlier as it was warmer... I have never had any problems with this period/length of hibernation. Mine are all boxed up now....and some had been dug in at my daughters and friends for a good few weeks... __________________ I CARE FOR TORTS

12-11-2009, 10:04 AM	#6
helen1 Senior Member Sub Adult Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: NORTH WEST Posts: 1,977	Was the increase in post hibernation anoerexia in box hibernated or fridge hibernated. __________________ I CARE FOR TORTS

13-11-2009, 09:54 AM	#9
helen1 Senior Member Sub Adult Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: NORTH WEST Posts: 1,977	Thanks...would be interested to know... The 8 week period...surely if you have a healthy animal...this is not an issue.....unless it is about to meet a "bug" in hibernation.. To extend that to 12 weeks only for hibernation is surely just as much a risk as 13 weeks and longer? For the most part, most keepers are supplementing the uv..with lamps...so that would remove that problem... Kirkie...this is not me having a go...but I have to pick things through and mull them over __________________ I CARE FOR TORTS

11-11-2009, 03:18 PM	#4
shellonia Senior Member Sub Adult Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: central s england Posts: 1,534	I actually think they are much tougher and wiser than we are.Provided they have eaten well,emptied and wound down naturally they are able to sustain a surprisingly long hibernation.I'm more careful with first timers and the very elderly but I think adult tortoises in good health won't come to any harm if they have a few more weeks than'recommended'.You get to know your own animals and their habits over the years.As for refridgerated hibernation that would scare me as you hold the control but lots of people do it successfully.

11-11-2009, 07:09 PM	#5
Kirkie Senior Member Adult Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,887	Just as a footnote to my previous post, the vet also noted that he has seen a steady increase over the last three years of cases of post hibernation anorexia. He attributed this to the succession of sub optimal summers we have experienced in the UK. MY own view is that the conditions in the UK for the ast three years have fallen well short of those a wild tortoise would be experiencing. Not just in terms of sunshine or temperature but UV exposure. As endothermic animals, tortoises receive a high percentage of their energy requirements from the sun, food makes up a much smaller percentage of the requirement. In addition the processes which enable a tortoise to utilise minerals which allow it to live, grow and function are based on a complex interaction with ultra violet light. One bad summer not a problem, a succession of sub optimal summers, potential problem. A tortoise entering hibernation is, in my view, reacting to the environmental challenge it is faced with. It does not enter a mammalian hibernation where vast quantities of energy reserves are expennded to maintain a semblance of normal bodily function. It is unable to function at these temperatures so everything shuts down. This includes the immune system. The production of white blood cells ceases. A tortoises white blood cells die after 8 weeks so for the latter part of hibernation and during the period following hibernation it is operating virtually without an immune system. Another reason I'm erring on the side of caution by undertaking a maximum of 12 weeks hibernation this year. One great tip from the vet was to ensure that the tortoise enters hibernation not lacking for anything is to use Reptiboost solution in the water in which you bathe the tortoise during the wind down period. This will enable the tortoise to take on electrolytes and other goodies as well as the essential water. As I’ve said before if the entering and exiting from hibernation is dependent on environmental cues such as temperature, its much easier to artificially emulate the exit than it is the entry.

12-11-2009, 07:44 PM	#7
Julia Member Egg Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: South West London Posts: 73	Thanks for this very ineresting theory. I can imagine that the cold summer must have some influence on them. I wonder if the solution would be to offer not just a basking lamp, but also UV light in their outdoor shelter? Anyway, it's too late for this year, and Jess is out of it all. I think I will transfer him into the fridge and check his weight reguarly, making a decison re the length of hibernation depending on his weightloss. Julia

12-11-2009, 11:37 PM	#8
Kirkie Senior Member Adult Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,887	Hi Julia, Sorry if I rattled on a bit and it was in no way intended to worry anyone, I feel that the vet raised an important point to take into consideration this year. May all our hibernations be be worry free! Heen, Good question, I'l see if I can find out.

13-11-2009, 11:02 AM	#10
Kirkie Senior Member Adult Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 4,887	Hi Helen, I'm the same at mulling things over. As you may know I lost a tortoise 2 weeks into hibernation last year and have spent the time since then trying to get my head round it. The post mortem on the tortoise found that it's tissue was well hydrated, its gut was virtually empty but that it had signs of liver disease. The tortoise went into hibernation with a condition which I now believe was accelerated by the wind down and hibernation process. The fact about the immumnosuppression has kind of drawn a line under this for me. I've always hibernated my larger tortoises for 12 weeks, it just fits the temperature range Dec-Mar I get here in London with its freaky weather

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