Poorly baby Hermanns
 

Hello. I am new to this forum. I am in UK and have been a breeder of Hermanni Boetgerri and F. Whitei tortoises for 30 years. *I am looking for advice regarding my 18 month old Hermann hatchling who has become ill. Toddy has been slow to thrive since hatching, but now weighs 64g. *I was away recently for 3 weeks and on my return found that while in the care of a friend he had become extremely dehydrated through having been too weak to get into his water with the other baby torts. *My friend realised and had started daily soaks where he was drinking copiously. *I found that he was so weak he had stopped eating altogether and was not able to drag himself very far. He was also mouth breathing every few seconds. *I guessed it was a respiratory infection and got him to the vet strtaight away. *She diagnosed Upper RI infection and agreed with me that Baytril could work. *She prescribed 0.02ml of Baytril in a solution of diluted blackcurrant juice to make it up to a total of 0.2ml fluid. I am giving this orally once daily. I raised the temperature in his tray to help the antibiotics to work. *I continued daily soaks with some Critical Care formula in the water, plus began feeding tiny pieces of pear to begin with (to increase his energy levels) then 2 days in I moved on to chopped weeds. *He is now on day 10 of the Baytril dose, looks very much better, is much more active, is eating chopped up weeds with enthusiasm. He is able to walk much more easily although he still drags his shell. *He has passed several grainy lots of uric acid and this is getting more creamy. *He has passed normal poo. *His eyes are bright and his shell and skin look much better and more rehydrated. *He is alert and interested. Although he has managed to bite off some pieces of dandelion, he clearly has not got much strength for this and still needs the weeds chopped small so that he can eat them. *He is obviously making very good progress. *...BUT HE IS STILL MOUTH BREATHING EVERY SO OFTEN...MAYBE EVERY 10-15 SECONDS.

What I am asking is this.... how long should I keep the Baytril dose going? The vet seemed a bit unsure about this... she sort of said" well bring him back in a week or so..." but I didn't think that she was too sure about the next step. What do other people on here suggest please?

Well it sounds like you're doing a sterling job, and he's recovering well, as I'm sure you know, open mouth breathing is a sign of respiratory infection. My vet explained to me last year, the problem can be identifying where exactly the bugs are in the respiratory tract and what sort they are, if baytril isn't working, it might be a case of taking swabs and bloods to identify the bugs and give your tort the right antibiotics for the infection. Just like us they need a full course of antibiotics, which is two full weeks, if you stop too soon , the bacteria become resistant to the antibiotics. Remember baytril is a generic antibiotic and won't necessarily treat all bugs. If your vet isn't sure how long to give the antibiotics, this suggests to me the he/she isn't a specialist vet, and I would try and find one. Where in the country are you, because there are a few good specialist vets around, and we could point you in the right direction.

Hi Suze,
Thanks so much for this. I am in mid cornwall, and no, the vet was not a specific rep vet.....we don't get much of that in Cornwall I don't think! If you know of any rep vets down here I would be very interested. It is years since I had to take one of my torts to a vet (like more than 20 years!) and so I guess a lot has changed in that time. My vets (I have other pets) are brilliant though and very willing to help.
So I could carry on with the Baytril at the same dose for a few more days then? It has certainly helped as he is now only taking a mouth breath every 20 secs or so, and sometimes goes for much longer periods without doing it at all. He seems to do it more when I disturb him or just after his meds (which he is drinking from a syringe really well, bless him).
I am thinking to increase his D3 and calcium uptake....I have just ordered a more specific UVB bulb and I am wondering whether to switch from Nutrobal to something else? What do you think?
Thanks for helping.

I agree with Suze that a more specialist vet may be a good idea. I was wondering why the baytrill wasn't being injected when the tort was so poorly.

The only other comment I could make, and Kath is probably aware of this, is that the tort might have been harmed by the dehydration to the degree that there is permanent damage which could have long term effects.

Completely agree, there could be damage to internal organs , and long term effects.

Thank you all for the advice. Yes, I realise that the tort might have suffered damage from the dehydration that might not be reversible but I can only try. I don't know why the vet chose oral Baytril regime over injection but the tort does seem to have made good progress on it so far. I just don't know how long to keep the Baytril going.... Or whether to take a break and then give a further 10 day dose after a period off as it were??

I am in mid Cornwall. Any specialist vets around here? My own vets are very good to me with my other pets. I have not needed vet help for my torts in over 20 years so I have not sought out a local herp vet but would be interested to know if there are any round here.

Open mouthed breathing is a sign of a lower respiritary infection. (Runny nose/ bubbles are an upper respiritary problem) & I think Fortnum is the antibiotic most suitable to treat it. (It needs to be stored in a freezer & injected every 72 hours)

(I do appreciate its hard to pinpoint which type it is with a baby) ��

Hopefully the baytrill will help & I would carry on & complete the full course. Are you keeping her warm 24/7? Keeping them warm boosts the immune system which obviously helps the AB's to work.

You need to keep the soaks up to combat the dehydrating affects of this heat. I recommended you get some Abidec (orange box) available in most chemists/ supermarkets. Add half an inch in the pippet provided to a warm shallow bath & topup the water to keep her warm & happy to sit in it for least 20 minutes. Then rinse her off. Add it to one bath daily.

I had a failure to thrive Hermanns hatchling. She wouldn't grow past 15 grams. She was 15 grams for 2 years! Only grew once I started to use this. Dan on here explained to me that once a torthas been dehydrated they really struggle to absorb vitamins. This is why they can eat normally but don't grow :( you need to "over do" the vitamins, together them in!

(Mine has continued to grow & is now a healthy smaller adult, but doing well)

What about nebulizing? Adding some F10 can really help (as can steaming if you don't have aneb, just shout if you need help with how to do this)

Thanks for all this. I have stopped the Baytril now after 12 days. I have got Abidec and so starting daily soaks in that. He is seeming pretty bright, and yesterday was chomping his chopped greens with real enthusiasm.
Thanks for all the help.
Do you think I should do another stint of Baytril in a few weeks' time if he is still mouth breathing by then? It is less frequent but still present.

good to hear. well done ! I would avoid 'greens' if it's the spring greens type as they can be high in protein , try stick to weeds, check some good ones out on the hyperlink to tortoise table or failing there are other shop bought bags of lambs lettuce, crispy floret which do have some beneficial snacks (http://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/p...0#.WN0OZJV1rX5

Personally I wouldn't dose up if fine or getting over it as the tort will need to get immune up on own, however keep up with the bathing abidec and also I bath mine in carrot baby food added to bath - it puts back the Vit A lost under the UV lights. But if you read abidec, I appreciate its for a different purpose but it also has big Vit A added to it so that may have done the trick. I know I am at odds with a lot of thinking but I have noticed Vit A can be stripped by UV lights but it may not mean they are deficient but symptons sometimes suggest otherwise. Keep the baytil for another time . CB