Is it wrong to keep TGG with TGI?

[killerthetortoise]

Hi,
I have a TGI already and am looking for another to keep it company. I have had an email from a guy saying he has some babies for sale but cant say they are pure TGI. He states the female is defo TGI but the male he's unsure about but it's of the TG sub type. I'm I right in thinking this isnt acceptable?

Phil.

[TransTort]

Hi,
I have a TGI already and am looking for another to keep it company. I have had an email from a guy saying he has some babies for sale but cant say they are pure TGI. He states the female is defo TGI but the male he's unsure about but it's of the TG sub type. I'm I right in thinking this isnt acceptable?

Phil.

Hi Phil,
You need the same subspecies too.Remember,if you get the Hermanns they cant go with Killer.

Julie :)

[killerthetortoise]

Thx, yup I'm TOTALLY aware I cant put a herman/horsefield etc with my TGI. I was more concerned the guy is knowingly cross breeding OR AT LEAST NOT 100% sure they are the same. Thats all.

Cheers
Phil.

[EJ]

Many taxonomists don't even recognize the concept of subspecies.

If you are looking at keeping 2 tortoises together as pets and you are not interested in breeding them there is nothing inherently wrong with putting the two together.

You are right in saying that it is not acceptable in certain circles (and this is one of them) but it is acceptable in many others. Keeping 2 different tortoises together, especially similar tortoises, is more of a control issue than anything else.



Hi,
I have a TGI already and am looking for another to keep it company. I have had an email from a guy saying he has some babies for sale but cant say they are pure TGI. He states the female is defo TGI but the male he's unsure about but it's of the TG sub type. I'm I right in thinking this isnt acceptable?

Phil.

[TransTort]

Many taxonomists don't even recognize the concept of subspecies.

If you are looking at keeping 2 tortoises together as pets and you are not interested in breeding them there is nothing inherently wrong with putting the two together.

You are right in saying that it is not acceptable in certain circles (and this is one of them) but it is acceptable in many others. Keeping 2 different tortoises together, especially similar tortoises, is more of a control issue than anything else.

Hi Ed,
Surely the mixing of Pathogens betweeen the sub-species is too great a risk to take,let alone the risk of breeding occurring?

Julie



Hi,
I have a TGI already and am looking for another to keep it company. I have had an email from a guy saying he has some babies for sale but cant say they are pure TGI. He states the female is defo TGI but the male he's unsure about but it's of the TG sub type. I'm I right in thinking this isnt acceptable?

Phil.

[EJ]

Subspecies is a human concept... species are a human concept... created for nothing more than scientists to communicate. Two seperate species today can become the same species tomorrow. Do you put them together? Two of the same species today can become seperate species tomorrow. Do you seperate them?

Pathogens for the most part are not species specific. Do you really think a bug chooses it's host as such?

The risk of transmitting pathogens from individual to individual is no greater than species to species. Give it a little thought.

It's another unreasonable scare tactic used by some.



[quote="EJ"]Many taxonomists don't even recognize the concept of subspecies.

Hi Ed,
Surely the mixing of Pathogens betweeen the sub-species is too great a risk to take,let alone the risk of breeding occurring?

Julie

[helen1]

Give it a little thought...........

Could be dangerous.

However my simple mind.... sees the logic in Ed's post.

[Bindi]

sooo, is it dodgy to keep two different species of torts together or not? A breeder told me that it was ok as long as they came from the same country and that the problems are mainly if you put two species together that come from a different climate I know I may sound like a dunce but I'm new to this and I would really like to knowe the 'sensible' answer!

[EJ]

It sounds like you're looking for affirmation. It aint gonna happen on this list.

I'll say that it is another one of those topics that is split 50/50. Again... this is the reason for the heated opinions. It is really a people issue and not an animal issue.

If you are looking to breed them for future generations... don't do it... as long as you know for a fact the types you have.

If they are yard pets... I don't see any problem with the practice of keeping them together... but that's me... I'm a minority on this list... as far as admiting as much.




sooo, is it dodgy to keep two different species of torts together or not? A breeder told me that it was ok as long as they came from the same country and that the problems are mainly if you put two species together that come from a different climate I know I may sound like a dunce but I'm new to this and I would really like to knowe the 'sensible' answer!

[helen1]

As far as subspecies go, to give an example from a thread last week....

TG Perseses(sp) from 2002 to now was named as a seperate subspecies to TG Buxtoni, DNA cannot seperate the groups so they are both now classified as TGBuxtoni.

Which torts do you wish to mix?

[sandy]

Well one reasonably well known keeper on the BCG used to mix all his tortoises. He did it one
too many times. He now has very few tortoises left, which he seperates now. You take the choice
and pay the price.

[helen1]

Sorry, am not awake, TGG and TGI...MISSED THAT

[helen1]

Was there a sick tortoise? What was the infection they all got? Did this tortoise bring it in?

[EJ]

This is so seriously impressive... someone who researches and seems to understand.


As far as subspecies go, to give an example from a thread last week....

TG Perseses(sp) from 2002 to now was named as a seperate subspecies to TG Buxtoni, DNA cannot seperate the groups so they are both now classified as TGBuxtoni.

Which torts do you wish to mix?

[wildlifewarrior]

sorry for interupting, but i thought Ej was slightly rude in the last post. "This is so seriously impressive... someone who researches and seems to understand. "
the tone in which you say this in seems to make me think that as the rest have not agreed completely with you then therefore they must be wrong and unable to understand or grasp the concerpt which you are saying.....then again what do i no i am only a 17 year old . lol :D

i don't get the reason for the pathogen things,,,thought this was about torts not bugs lol.

personally mixing subspeices seems in most cases to be done becuase the person wants more than one type and wants them to live together as it looks better. this is fine i mean just look at fish, people kept goldfish, then realised they cud be kept with kois and shurbinkins and such, until one gets stressed and they get one spot or one is an expection to the rule and eats the smaller fish.

snakes may be more dangerous than torts but are eaiser to keep and require less care but i wud not want to mix the sub species wof them with eachother. it is interesting to know if certian ones can live with eachother and you never truley know until you put it in pratice....but then you have to ask ur self why keep two different torts together when they can live fine on there own and the only risk they have is by putting the 2 togther.

we all know reptiles are good at masking there illnesses so if one is stressed out but is not showing it then it cud lead to problems. then agaian they both might live completey normal live and happy healthy lives, but why not just keep the 2 seperate,ani't gonna harm them.

i keep different types of treefrogs that cud live to gether aswell as stickinsects and sandboas....but why mix them?

[EJ]

This is actually a wonderful post because it shows how information can be taken out of context in a negative manner.

Helen1 is a friend and keyed onto an improtant point.

I would have worded it differently had it been a poster that I had not been corresponding with.

Mixing species has nothing to do with a purpose. Somebody likes different tortoises and would like to keep them as pets. It's like keeping different dogs or cats. They are pets and nothing more.

There are many people who take it to a different level... that's us.




sorry for interupting, but i thought Ej was slightly rude in the last post. "This is so seriously impressive... someone who researches and seems to understand. "
the tone in which you say this in seems to make me think that as the rest have not agreed completely with you then therefore they must be wrong and unable to understand or grasp the concerpt which you are saying.....then again what do i no i am only a 17 year old . lol :D

i don't get the reason for the pathogen things,,,thought this was about torts not bugs lol.

personally mixing subspeices seems in most cases to be done becuase the person wants more than one type and wants them to live together as it looks better. this is fine i mean just look at fish, people kept goldfish, then realised they cud be kept with kois and shurbinkins and such, until one gets stressed and they get one spot or one is an expection to the rule and eats the smaller fish.

snakes may be more dangerous than torts but are eaiser to keep and require less care but i wud not want to mix the sub species wof them with eachother. it is interesting to know if certian ones can live with eachother and you never truley know until you put it in pratice....but then you have to ask ur self why keep two different torts together when they can live fine on there own and the only risk they have is by putting the 2 togther.

we all know reptiles are good at masking there illnesses so if one is stressed out but is not showing it then it cud lead to problems. then agaian they both might live completey normal live and happy healthy lives, but why not just keep the 2 seperate,ani't gonna harm them.

i keep different types of treefrogs that cud live to gether aswell as stickinsects and sandboas....but why mix them?

[gtm]

I can't see a problem with keeping different 'sub species' of GST's together. In the wild their respective ranges meet and they can and do interact and breed. I read somewhere that if you are planning to breed ensure the female is a bigger 'subspecies' in order to avoid egg compaction - ie ibera. You would need to do the usual quarantine when introducing a new tortoise to avoid transmission of diseases etc.

[jo__]

I personally would not mix the two... Its fair enough they may meet in the wild, but it is more likely they will meet tortoises of their same subspecies- so personally i fink we should keep it that way :)
Jo x

[finchy]

This subject is of particular interest to me as I have two females, one TGG and one TGI that have lived together for 15 years +. I have to say that there have never been any signs of problems or illness.

After reading previous posts on this site it seems that the majority of people would not do this.

Having read Edd’s comments on this thread I do agree with his argument. After all, if you mix a TGG that is from Algeria with a TGG that comes from spain, there will be more risk than keeping a TGG and TGI together that have been mixed for 15 Years.

Thinking logically about it, a pathogen is not going to care about a name a human has given to an animal. Factors such as the immune system and what diseases the animal has been exposed to in the past would seem to be much more important.

If I were going to buy two new torts now or trying to breed them I would be getting two of the same sub-species. At the moment I don’t think I will be rushing to split the TGI and TGG up. Having said that, I’m no expert in this so I could be completely wrong, but on balance it seems the best thing to do.

[EJ]

There are many more people like yourself that keep tortoises that don't have a clue about this culture. They have pet tortoises... they keep them together... and they don't care what the race or species is. They have been doing this for umteen years and there are many.

It is when you get anal that it really matters.

A name was created by people. Do you really think the animal cares one way or the other?


This subject is of particular interest to me as I have two females, one TGG and one TGI that have lived together for 15 years +. I have to say that there have never been any signs of problems or illness.

After reading previous posts on this site it seems that the majority of people would not do this.

Having read Edd’s comments on this thread I do agree with his argument. After all, if you mix a TGG that is from Algeria with a TGG that comes from spain, there will be more risk than keeping a TGG and TGI together that have been mixed for 15 Years.

Thinking logically about it, a pathogen is not going to care about a name a human has given to an animal. Factors such as the immune system and what diseases the animal has been exposed to in the past would seem to be much more important.

If I were going to buy two new torts now or trying to breed them I would be getting two of the same sub-species. At the moment I don’t think I will be rushing to split the TGI and TGG up. Having said that, I’m no expert in this so I could be completely wrong, but on balance it seems the best thing to do.

[piglet]

Tgi and Tgg should never ever be mixed
Tgg are delicate tortoises who's range is mainly North Africa through to Syria and Israel, all Tgi's sub species are unique to there range they never come into contact with either Thb or Tgi and rarely if ever do the boundaries of Tgg overlap regarding sub species of Tgg, they are all isolated populations that have evolved there own pathogens that when mixed pass these on to each other causing RNS type symptoms that often prove fatal.

This is one dam good example of mixing populations from isolated areas
When White settles first went to the states there resistance to the common cold, measles etc was extremely strong unfortunately the native people didn't have these resistances and the common cold wiped out thousands of people.

So by mixing these species/sub species you are in effect signing there death warrant
Anyone considering mixing in my opinion is dam right cruel
D

[helen1]

Can I just clarify...
White settlers spread disease that wiped out natives......now the "natives" are I presume immune to some extent that we all are to the common cold?

We are not talking about introducing a group of torts to a different group in group 2's native country. That would have the potential to wipe out the native population.

We are talking about mixing individual torts, which have been poss.bred in UK to one another?

Surely this is a different scenario?

[EJ]

That's one opinion.







Tgi and Tgg should never ever be mixed
Tgg are delicate tortoises who's range is mainly North Africa through to Syria and Israel, all Tgi's sub species are unique to there range they never come into contact with either Thb or Tgi and rarely if ever do the boundaries of Tgg overlap regarding sub species of Tgg, they are all isolated populations that have evolved there own pathogens that when mixed pass these on to each other causing RNS type symptoms that often prove fatal.

This is one dam good example of mixing populations from isolated area
When White settles first went to the states there resistance to the common cold, measles etc was extremely strong unfortunately the native people didn't have these resistances and the common cold wiped out thousands of people.

So by mixing these species/sub species you are in effect signing there death warrant
Anyone considering mixing in my opinion is dam right cruel
D

[piglet]

No I still disagree strongly each is unique to its self, I have in the past mixed captive bred Tunisians with captive bred baby Ibera, the Tunisians where fine for two years by them selves but when mixed with the baby ibera they became seriously ill with RNS related problems and before any one says all my animals are fighting fit and healthy mixing is cruel and not necessary , if you need a different species sub species and can't offer the separate room DON'T GET THEM
There are very few native Americans left most that didn't die in war and land disputes died of viral disease spread by white settles
D

[piglet]

Ed it might only be one opinion but many if not hundreds practice my way they just don't stress theer opinion, I know in the states they believe in mixing , but again not all agree over there either, but here and most of europe we don't mix and have seen the results death or long term illness

D

[EJ]

Most of my opinion comes from europe and especially the UK.

These are people who collected tortoises on holiday many years ago before the current restrictions.

Where do you think those tortoises in the garden from antie jane came from?

This has nothing to do with the states.

Think about it.



Ed it might only be one opinion but many if not hundreds practice my way they just don't stress theer opinion, I know in the states they believe in mixing , but again not all agree over there either, but here and most of europe we don't mix and have seen the results death or long term illness

D

[piglet]

I thought we where discussing mixing species not collecting animals from the wild .
As for the average back garden tortoise I have taken hundreds of these in and never except on the odd occasion have I ever had different sub species handed in that have lived together without problems
I don't agree with mixing at all you can go on for ever I will never agree it cruel and not necessary , as said if you want more than one species /sub species provide separate accommodation
I stress to all thinking about mixing don't do it and don't listen to anyone who says its fine its not.
D

[wildlifewarrior]

i very very strongly agree with piglet. there is no actual reason to mix to different animals weather sub species or not.

what excalty does my opion comes from europe and the u.k., ur opion come from what you beleive not on the standards of a country.

many things are different from here and in the states, over there it is the norm to feed live rodents to ur snakes, where as here it is fround upon and i beleive it is illegal.
many forums i have been on that are american based keep anoles and plated lizards with torts, and have mutli climates in whicht hey keep lizards and frogs together to have a mini ecosystem.

CB animals don't have as many problems but they have a less immune system (or so i thought). these animals are been kept together not by there requirements but by pure statifaction from the owner if this happens. i just don't see the need to do it.

[EJ]

I know people on this list mix species. I know people on this list know my point.

I'll leave it at that.

[wildlifewarrior]

o...k then

[helen1]

I will leave it too as I have just walked my dogs across the fields to try to gather my thoughts and I find I have sooo many questions which will not get answered..specifically. I will have to find out for myself.

Darren I have a Golden Greek and an Ibera handed into me this year, they have lived together for 10yrs..they appear to be well.

I have knowledge of a group of 35 torts, hermanns and spurs who have lived together over a period of 30ish years. hardly. if ever have they been ill or been to vets.

I have 4 torts that I was given 3 yrs ago, they are in the region of 50ish yrs old each one is a different species/subspecies-all were and are fighting fit.

None of these examples am I using as proof of anything except as examples of their own situations.

I do not want to condone something which has a potential for disaster...that would be irresponsible.

I want to understand the science wherein lies the potential for the proof..that is all.

I respect peoples view points and am sorry for your loss. I would be heartbroken.

To put it very simply if I knew a TGI possibly carried virus A and TGG carried virus B and TGS carried virus C and if they met A(BC), B(CA) OR C(BA) would be potentially fatal....but no-one explains what these different virus's are...do you understand what I am saying?

[tort71]

I agree with Ed on this point as well. However I think there are some rules that you can apply to this:

1) Don't mix species that require two different habitats (obvious health reasons).
2) Don't mix species that are known to be too violent during breeding times.
3) Get your tortoises when they are young (few months) and not from the pet store.
4) Don't mix species that have different diets (unless you can divide them up at feeding time).

I think #3 especially debunks the pathogen argument. The only way it could have that pathogen is if it was wild caught. If you have multiple tortoises that were captive breed by a breeder who knows what they're doing, they shouldn't have any pathogens. Tortoises aren't born with certain types of pathogens, they pick it up from their natural habitats. So I wouldn't mix close related species unless you know where they both came from, I think that's the most important aspect.

This is only my opinion

[tort71]

I read somewhere that if you are planning to breed ensure the female is a bigger 'subspecies' in order to avoid egg compaction - ie ibera.

I don't understand this statement at all. How can the female get impacted by its own egg? If a bigger male species mates with a smaller female species the egg size should be the same regardless of who mated with her. It's her egg. The reason you don't want them to mate is because different species of tortoise have different "mating rituals" and can be really violent. The babies can also be born with health issues and deformities.

[Pussygalore]

I thought the whole point of this site " Shelled Warriors" was and is to promote the Tortoise Trust methods and veiws on tort keeping there are plenty of other open sites that don't do this and would openly welcome people with other ideas, I thought that was the orriginal intention and therefore the people who come and join us should have similar ideas, I'm all for free speech as I'm sure you all know but I don't think we're here to debate the very subjects that we are trying to promote, newcommers are directed to this site for its good information, they are often confused and worried and have maybe come here because they can't find another site which does stick to and promote its veiws the last thing they then need is to find out that we are no better than the other sites and that we have members who openly dissagree with the very policy's we are there to promote, if our intentions and veiws have changed that much since this site started ( I don't think they have) then maybe we should rethink the whole site and become like all the other sites which keep their torts in vivs, feed them pellets and mix their species I think it was and is our strong veiws on the TT methods that has made us such a big and one of the best sites for tort care and maybe a lot of the orriginal good members are leaving because we seem to be having doubts about what we are here for.

[DAISY]

Personaly I wouldnt mix species. If there is even a question as to wheither there is risk of cross contamination, why even take the risk. While there is so much uncertainty as to what risk there actualy is I would rather play it safe.
That being said, In the case of torts that have lived together for many many years in each others company I would have to weigh up the pros and cons and considor wheither seperating would be potentialy more stressful to them and wheither they had possibly built up an imunity to each others pathogens. But I would never introduce different species to each other and take my chances in the hope that they may develop immunity.
As always its personal choice but one I feel could have potentialy fatal consequences.

Rach

[helen1]

Pussygalore....I for one am not promoting the things you mention "vivs pellets and mixing species". I am trying to understand the thinking/science behind what I do. I am sure no one wishes to go blindly into anything. Yes, I respect peoples views and the work of the TT and its members. The beauty of this forum is that facilitates learning not just for new keepers but for everyone. I am 100% positive that everyone on here is tatally committed to the care of their torts..if they were not they would not stick around.

If I had told one of my children whilst they were in their teens to do something without question or without understanding Iwould not have promoted their independance or individuality. If you understand in depth why you do something, in my opinion you do it better.

There is a wealth of expertise on here and open discussion will always rise from this...human nature.

[wildlifewarrior]

i think Pussygalore has summed that up.

[Pussygalore]

I'm also all for understanding why we do things but having been a member since this forum started if I remember correctly the reason for starting was that we were disolutioned as to the sheer amount of varying information out there and so many were confused as to which way to go, the forum was set up by people who follow the advice of the TT and believe in what they do this hasn't changed as far as I'm concerned, if members need to understand further the reasons behind the TT ways of keeping torts then they can refer to their site, to argue their policy's on here only adds to the confusion and puts doubts in new members minds, a lot of the other sites don't follow or agree with the TT methods but the fact is that I at least thought that we did.

[Tamie Milne]

I'm also all for understanding why we do things but having been a member since this forum started if I remember correctly the reason for starting was that we were disolutioned as to the sheer amount of varying information out there and so many were confused as to which way to go, the forum was set up by people who follow the advice of the TT and believe in what they do this hasn't changed as far as I'm concerned, if members need to understand further the reasons behind the TT ways of keeping torts then they can refer to their site, to argue their policy's on here only adds to the confusion and puts doubts in new members minds, a lot of the other sites don't follow or agree with the TT methods but the fact is that I at least thought that we did.

Three cheers from me!! :wink:

Pussygalore, sadly politics will always play a part. I am aware of why Andy et al created the Tortoise Trust all those years ago and the reasons they did. It is so obvious to me that there will always be the argument of a few to go against everything the TT is trying to get 'out there' in terms of knowledge, care and husbandry, it is a game to some and they admit they are amused at standing against the TT on virtually every issue - politics at play and oh how they love their new recruits! :roll:

Thanks Pussygalore!

Tamie

[wildlifewarrior]

also if you same u can't mix torts together but then say well u can mix some sub species together then it is a contradiction and u can't really have one rule for one and another for another.

i understand what Pussygalore means when refering to "doubts in new members minds" as you are offering people a site that gives advice on the correct way to rear torts, but they ur going on about mixing. i still don't undertsand why you wud want to mix torts, if you don't the room for another encloser then don't have the tort.

[Pussygalore]

Iv'e only kept tortoises for a couple of years and very luckily brought my 2 hermans from a breeder who turned out to be a good member on here although I didn't know it at the time he gave me all the right advice from the start, so I was using the TT methods without even realizing it, needless to say everything has worked brilliantly for me my torts have never been sick and have I think made the right weight gains and seem happy and content, so my later additions also I think benefited from what I had learned and are now I think happier and healthier than when they first came to me, I am always pushing people towards this site and its policys, I'm always surprised at how badley others have been advised and hope that if only a few torts have healthier, happier lives through what we do on here then thats a job well done, most of it is just common sense and thinking how those animals would live out their natural lives which I think applies to all the animals we keep.

[piglet]

Well I have had my say and could go on all day about this subject, but life's too short to get stressed over the politics derived from subjects such as this.
Me and Sarah do agree with many husbandry guidelines set down by the TT but we didn't start this forum to promote the TT they do that them selves but we are happy to promote the TT when we feel is necassary and also are own experiences in tortoise husbandry.
We started this forum as we where banned from another forum that was once as equally popular as this , unfortunately that site died a death due to politics(its actually becoming quite popular again though I hear) which both myself and Sarah got involved in something we really didn't want to happen on here but sounds like its starting again here to, so maybe this is the end of SW if the rumours are true about everyone leaving , anyway no matter how we try to be as reasoning and acceptable of all posts that are added to the lists we still acn't get it right so how about starting your own lists ths way you can all see how friggin hard it is
So too all people who are leaving as they feel they can't post without attack from members with controversial advise is go join the TT list or I can suggest is instead of allowing yourselves to get overheated on matters you disagree with is stress your point once its stressed people can decide which they wish to follow and as the majority sing from the same book I would imagine they will follow the majority.

Helen Tgt golden greeks are not often seen in the UK they are delicate tortoises and do often fall victim to incorrect husbandry i.e mixing spieces , do you ahve any pictures of this animal

D

[Pussygalore]

I'm not sure if the last post by piglet was aimed at me or not but one thing I will say is that if this site is now changing its mind about not keeping different species together and trying to promote a good diet and no vivs then its not the site for me anymore, I was trying to back the site not discredit it, everything I have learnt has come from here and although I have had differences of opiniums with people they have never been over the basic good care and husbandry for tort s that this site taught me, call me whatever but I see no place on here for people that promote the mixing of species or the use of vivs if we don't stick to our aims and principles whether they are different from others or not then there isn't any point in what we are trying to do, we can argue all day over other issues but not the basics that I thought we as members all believed in and practised. it would not be the death of this site if those who don't agree and keep their animals in other ways joined more suitable sites as I'm sure there are enough of us who are trying what we believe is the right way to care for our torts.

[Jason1]

This group is by far the best tortoise group on the net. I enjoy a good discusion but I think an exchange of views is all that is neccessary. I dont understand why post cant just have firstly the question and then peoples own opinions backed up with references to articles, books etc if appropriate. by all means make the point that you dont agree with a member but try to be slightly construction and offer an alternative view. In 50 years time ed and people who keep there torts as he does might have lost all there tortoises at an earlier age than those who follow the TT's advice or vice versa. then maybe we can say this way is right and this way is wrong because they live for longer when kept this way. Until then try to accept other methods and of course criticize if you can put a good point across. I should be 73 by then but maybe both types of husnbandry will be equally successful.

I've kind of come away from the point of mixing somewhat here. Firstly let me say that stress lowers the capability of the immune system to fight of infection. My view is if mixing the tortoise causes stress then your bound to end up with disease, after all (I think i am right but disagree if you wish) the main cause of RNS is stress something antibiotics can do nothing about. Obviously in cases were mixing is sucessfull the tortoises haven't become stressed and therefore have lived together for many a year without any problems. How else can you explain why some have mixed X and Y and had no problems and others have mixed X and Y and lost either X or Y. Personally its a risk I wouldn't take but on the other hand if I rehomed a group of mixed torts that had been mixed for years I wouldn't seperate them.

Jason

[Henry-flash]

I'm not sure if the last post by piglet was aimed at me or not but one thing I will say is that if this site is now changing its mind about not keeping different species together and trying to promote a good diet and no vivs then its not the site for me anymore, I was trying to back the site not discredit it.

When did anyone say this site was changing towards vivs, mixing and pellets? People simply have differing opinions.
This is a forum, heres the definition of a forum:

1. A public meeting place for open discussion.
2. A medium for open discussion or voicing of ideas, such as a newspaper, a radio or television program, or a website.

OPEN DISCUSSION seems to be a key thing here and thats all that goes on here at SW. Yes, the majority of us go with 'TT ideas' or something very close to that and others go to the opposite extreme. As a forum you will never get everyone to agree, you cannot simply ban someone for disagreeing. If you would rather everyone gave the exact same advice then simple don't have a forum you have a static website just with information on. I personally prefer the forum option.

Sarah and Darren (along with a few others :wink: ) have put vast amounts of work and effort into this site and they continue to do so everyday. I would hate to see the forum brought down by all these squabbles, which aren't neccessary. I thought we all agreed an end to them a few weeks ago?

While I'm here I have to say I would love to know why people keep saying lots of members have left, I can think of just one or two, but every forum has natural loss such as that.

Hope I'm not completly out of order here.

[sandy]

Pussygalore, I think you will find its the minority that think mixing speices, feeding pellets are
good tort husbandry.
The majority still think the opposite, members are entitled to their own opinions even if they
are wrong<vbg> (ducking waiting for the bullets to fly) in my opinion.
But as I have said many a time, once you have the info, its your choice and you pay the
consequences of it right or wrong.

[chris_walton]

IN MY OPINION MIXING SPECIES IS WRONG AND I WOULD NOT ADVISE IT

[Tamie Milne]

IN MY OPINION MIXING SPECIES IS WRONG AND I WOULD NOT ADVISE IT

Sorry Chris, did not quite get the message ... how do you feel about mixing?? :wink:

Tamie <ducks>

[chris_walton]

you know what its like when you just want to be heard

to me mixing species is just as bad as keeing a vulture and a budgie in the same cage you just wouldnt do it, just becuase they are both tortoises to me its no exception, so why do it. obviously there are people in the world that do it but i personally wouldnt

so to answer killerthetorts question try and find another reputable breeder who you can be sure of. and if you want a different species of tort just build another enclosure and go from there

[wildlifewarrior]

Henry-flash is right about each to there own thing...just have to agree to disagree. you u all not forgive and forget :D

[Lyn]

If in doubt, don't do it.

[sarah]

Oh gosh here we go again another thread that has gone wrong.
I am totally against mixing species, it is wrong in my eyes. Its like breeding sheep and cows to me. But that is my opinion.

As Darren said we made this forum because we were kicked of another and a dealer of WC tortoises was allowed on there. Shelled Warriors is Shelled Warriors and not a splinter group.

We Ask for no money running this forum, it cost a hell of alot to run and all the money comes out of mine and Darrens pocket, ebay shop and money recieved from selling CB tortoises on the occasion.

Its not easy running a forum or starting a forum. We get 50+ members a day that we have to screen before activating, plus moderation. It takes hours every day.

We also offer a FREE newsletter, thanks to peter and Kelly.

As there are so many anti Shelled Warriors member that i am not aware of. Many be its best if Darren and I get rid of the forum because it seems that we cannot make anyone happy.

Shelled Warriors is about freedom of speach but not for causing arguements! I do take note of people causing arguements and i am getting fed up of it, anymore and my finger will be hitting the ban button.

[piglet]

Pete great post

Pussy no its not directed at you but you do speak of people leaving and not posting you know more about this than me as no one has left or asked to leave

Sarah I leave it to you I will post where its safe on anything not tortoise related.

Ed you sure know how to put a forum to unrest with these strange Ideas you come up with , I see that the advise we have given about not mixing is far more up to date than the old ways of its a spurthigh so what the hell run them together, but research has shown that spieces mixing is not just in the tortoise world extremley unsafe but also among the animals kingdom in general, its been seen that African and Indian Elephants can hybridise but thsi isn't right surely so I again disagree to the mixing of tortoise spieces and sub speices its not worth the risk so why try

J.Langish your post was good makes a lot of sense regarding the stress related RNS theory

D

[wildlifewarrior]

sarah u better not get rid of the site, not when i gave out the website cards at the vets open day lol.

i am a member of a few reptile site where many own torts and the disscusion of them on those forums ar as in depth nor are some of the keeper knowledgeable. most keep them in vivs in there bedrooms and attics and never hiberate them nor give them proper food, they may no stuff about keeping snakes right and that but they don't no the very basics of keeping some of there other animals such as torts and i don't want to be associated with people that keep animals in these wrong conditions weather torts or not.

e.g. i am a member of this side and don't own a single tort or turtle, but this is the only real forum that i have seen where people are giving passionate views on torts from experince.

most sites push torts to a side and say stick them in a wooden box and feed them pellet food,where as this site does not give expert,book quaoted views but realistic experineced views.

[DAISY]

I for one think it would be a shame to end such a great forum. An I'm not kissin ass, just stating a fact. In the months I have been here I have found the advice invaluable and learnt more about tortoise keeping than in 10 years of reading tort books. I have hopefully extended my tortoises life by many years following some of the great advice given and ignoring what I dont agree with. I have also corresponded with and met some great people.
What a thankless task it must seem to the people running it with all the childish bickering.
I dont normaly do the forum thing but I'm addicted to SW and what would I do without my fix.

Rach

[EJ]

My ideas are not really strange... they are actually the norm among pet keepers.

I'm not throwing temper tantrums because not many agree with me. I'm stating my opinion based on my experience and that of others.

Also, if you read through the posts you will see that I'm not throwing the group into unrest. Most of the group that responded to this post did so in a thoughtful and constructive manner. Most of those left out the snide remarks and were able to agree to disagree.

Again, there are those that like to muddy the facts with bs. I don't advocate mixing species. I also don't think there is anything inherently wrong with it from a common sense standpoint. I know some people can see the difference.




Pete great post

Ed you sure know how to put a forum to unrest with these strange Ideas you come up with , I see that the advise we have given about not mixing is far more up to date than the old ways of its a spurthigh so what the hell run them together, but research has shown that spieces mixing is not just in the tortoise world extremley unsafe but also among the animals kingdom in general, its been seen that African and Indian Elephants can hybridise but thsi isn't right surely so I again disagree to the mixing of tortoise spieces and sub speices its not worth the risk so why try

D

[helen1]

Darren...

At present I am on my sons computer and pics are on mine.....my battery refuses to charge unless it is stood on its end with a heavy book on top....which I will try tonight.

However on(I think Tortoise friends) I posted pics and Egyptian Dan and I thought you too, although on that could be wrong; id'd Edwina as a Golden greek...I may have posted pics on here but am not sure.

For information sake all my species/sub species are seperate...so I am neither arguing my corner nor being political. I, as I have said just want all the information......that is the way I am, those on here who have met me/ know me will tell you there is no side to me just an insatiable thirst for knowledge. If someone raises a point I may agree/disagree but I have to know the facts. I apologise if I have upset anyone..I try not too..I have a gripe about communicating in this way, I would rather pick the phone up..we move with the times though..

I will go look for her in her enclosure as she is up late usually and if she is put some pics on ID.

[piglet]

Ed you did cause the unrest you stated mixing was fine that in its self causes unrest and upset and you knew only too well it would ,after all as Pussy stated we have been advocating this type of husbandry and trying to sway people from it from the start and now you are giving people reasons to think different which to me if they try it going to cause unnecessary stress and harm to there animals .
You state this is the norm among Pet keepers regarding Tortoises? can you point me to where its stated or where people see this as the norm as I would like to add my say hopefully help a few tortoises out from having a miserable life , I have never seen this on any forum in the UK except a few that are run with no expertise to advise
D

[EJ]

Back to the point...

Here is a photo of Golden Greeks. They were all part of the same shipment. I was told that they are found in an area were they range from the desert to the mountains. They are all considered the same species. Those that come from the higher altitudes are darker and those at the lower altitudes are lighter. The color will vary inbetween. So... If you were to find these individually would you keep them seperately?

http://home.comcast.net/~epirog/GreekVariety.jpg

[EJ]

Do you think most people who keep tortoises or who have kept tortoises in the past network? I don't think so.

Count the number of posts you've seen over the years of people who have received tortoises that were backyard pets and they were mixed.

Again, don't muddy the water. You have a belief. That is your belief. This is mine. The person asked for an honest opinion... I offered one. Do I offer the opinion to create trouble... no. It does need to be said and I try to word it as inoffensively as possible.

The other thing is... you're getting angry because I'm causing people to think????????? Interesting.



Ed you did cause the unrest you stated mixing was fine that in its self causes unrest and upset and you knew only too well it would ,after all as kitty stated we have been advocating this type of husbandry and trying to sway people from it from the start and now you are giving people reasons to think different which to me if they try it going to cause unnecessary stress and harm to there animals .
You state this is the norm among Pet keepers regarding Tortoises? can you point me to where its stated or where people see this as the norm as I would like to add my say hopefully help a few tortoises out from having a miserable life , I have never seen this on any forum in the UK except a few that are run with no expertise to advise
D

[sandy]

You are only making some think, new inexperieced keepers will panic, and take your views as
the right way, because they are frightened of hibernation. This is taking advantage of their
ignorance
Also mixing speices, they have not got the experience to choose with full info.

[EJ]

With the information I provide they are getting the full picture and all the information they need to make an intellegent decision.

Where does it say in any of my posts that my way is the right or only way?

I'm not throwing in any fear factor... just the facts.

Somehow another fun thread has turned into a mine is bigger than yours contest.




You are only making some think, new inexperieced keepers will panic, and take your views as
the right way, because they are frightened of hibernation. This is taking advantage of their
ignorance
Also mixing speices, they have not got the experience to choose with full info.

[helen1]

Edwina looks like the lighter ones and has a lovely golden head and legs and is very delicate looking.

[piglet]

They are all one type , This wasn't the disagreement you stated TGI and TGG can mix that is what the thread is about, golden greeks range is vastly different and different coloured animals range within the area, some will state that these are different sub/species but we dont, they are all Tg Terrestris.

This is what you said could mix a TGG and TGI

The small animal is a adult female Tg graeca of Oran Algeria well into her 80's the large animal is a male T Ibera of Turkish origin at least 60+, both these are regonised speices, now is it a ok to mix them they could potentially hybridise and of course imgine the stress the female would go through when the male becomes ammourus actually he would kill her by the days end,

D





http://www.postimage.org/aVEAzZ9.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aVEAzZ9)

[piglet]

Ed I'm far from angry I don't no as said anyone who succeeded in keeping Tgi and Tgg successfully together without death or damage to either party

D

[piglet]

Helen she sounds nice , how long as she been in the UK

D

[EJ]

The same situation could happen with 2 of the same species. The point is that it all depends on the animals you have in hand.

You other point is those tortoises are now the same species. You know as well as I they can be split off tomorrow. Do you then seperate them?



They are all one type , This wasn't the disagreement you stated TGI and TGG can mix that is what the thread is about, golden greeks range is vastly different and different coloured animals range within the area, some will state that these are different sub/species but we dont, they are all Tg Terrestris.

This is what you said could mix a TGG and TGI

The small animal is a adult female Tg graeca of Oran Algeria well into her 80's the large animal is a male T Ibera of Turkish origin at least 60+, both these are regonised speices, now is it a ok to mix them they could potentially hybridise and of course imgine the stress the female would go through when the male becomes ammourus actually he would kill her by the days end,

D





http://www.postimage.org/aVEAzZ9.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aVEAzZ9)

[Pussygalore]

ED you have a very good way with words and you know it, you often come up with scientific terms that the average person including me find very daunting and hard to argue with because I for one don't always understand what you are on about, I'm not ignorant but neither did I go to university, I am just an average person with a love of all animals who is trying to do her best in keeping what are relatively new to me, my torts, to me hibernation is something which I always thought should happen even before I got my torts as it naturally occurs in nature, I don't see them living in groups or herds so assume they are solitary animals apart from mating, I don't see vivariums or vegetables in their native surroundings, I don't need a science degree to know these things, to me they are facts and things that I try to replicate in the way I care for my torts, I see no reason or have any desire to try to change these things apart from adapting them to a captive enviroment, I like this site and reccomend it to others because it reinforces what I already thought if I didn't think this way then no doubt I would be elsewhere where my ideas were the same. no one has forced my veiws and ideas on me I have learned what I know from watching programmes and reading books and what I see matches what I find on here.

[piglet]

Ed I very much doubt it females of the T ibera male pictured are far larger or heavier than him damage is limited to them as they are fit healthy animals and able to loose him when he gets aggressive the Tgg is tiny in comparison to him he would kill her one his head is big enough to bite half her face off and his aggressive behaviour typical of Ibera would shatter the Keratin covering of her carapace
Yes they may well be separated But if this is done in a scientific way then the whole group will be recognised as species and they then will be separated in to subspecies within there own range so by mixing them you are in effect hybridising what may well become a sub species again something I don't agree with, now if they where in my care I would separate them in to like to like groups
D

[helen1]

Pics of Edwina in ID/SEXING.

She is lovely, as far as I can trace back......she lived in Cumbria before me(with males as they thought she was, they were TGG and TGI and Thb) before that she came from a group poss.BCG, before that found in bad conditions in a petshop and before that who knows? She is allegedly about 10 yrs old..its all good news from now though.

[wildlifewarrior]

sorry i don't mean to argue but ED you seem to be making the situation worse, you comment on many posts by saying you know many that pratice this method and wud agree with me......who are all these people u go on about.

this is just like the on going argument about keeping and breeding bearded dragons and rankins dragons together, they are very similar and everyone said little harm will happen. then behold the rankins dragon, half the life expentacny and higher chance of MBD. but of course poeple found this out the hard way by keeping them when they were told not. plus the females suffer from egg bound.


I have said it already before but i side with piglet on this one and he makes sense with what he is saying whereas Ed seems to be saying stick them and watch what heppens. not trying to suck up here or anything but i have also heard many good things about Piglet from members on this site.

[Pussygalore]

ED just out of interest the picture of the group of torts you say were in a shipment, does that mean that you rescued them or were they shipped to you and obviously they were wild caught as you mention the darker ones comming from a higher altitude, I didn't know that you do rescue work?

[EJ]

Yup... I Saved them... rescued them from certain death.

No. I purchased them.

I do take in rescues and rehome them. No fee. No conditions... ummmm... yes... there are conditions. What comes in for free goes out for free. If the adoptor want's to get rid of the animal it comes back to me. Some I've kept with the condition that if the person who has given them up finds themselves in a better situation and would like the animal back... it's done.


ED just out of interest the picture of the group of torts you say were in a shipment, does that mean that you rescued them or were they shipped to you and obviously they were wild caught as you mention the darker ones comming from a higher altitude, I didn't know that you do rescue work?

[brighteyes]

PHIL????? are you still there?
To cut out the "politics" of all the posts, some people mix, some dont. Pathogens seems to be the main reason not to mix so now you know that you can use the advise of others on here, plus do your own googling to then make up your mind what YOU want to do.

Paula

ps - when i joined this site i thought it was because it was going to give me good advice from experienced people. If you cut out all the nasty bits it HAS done that, but advice is just that, ADVICE. Not rules, laws etc.

I personally was after more than just one view, and this certainly is not advertised as the TT forum.


ooh - maybe if we put in an Arguing section we could link threads so the argument carries on seperate and the person asking could actually get their question answered without feeling like they'd started another war. Come on guys, its the same arguments every time!!!!

[helen1]

Hmm Phil... I think you did this on purpose??? only joking.

Yes read and enjoy, you certainly got a run for your money!!

Avery good forum indeed and I too would hate for it to go away and appreciate its existence.

[EJ]

After rereading the original post something else just occured to me.

One of my greatest pet peeves is how experts can 'tell' where a Greek tortoise came from by looking at it. If you look at the picture I posted you will see 3 different tortoises.

Believe it or not I was furious when I got these animals. I wanted a breeding group of Goldens. I do mix species but for breeding projects I don't.

Anyway... The graeca complex is just that... complex. I don't think you will ever see a resolution as to the different forms. The experts... the real experts... have trouble distinguishing the forms. Do you think the person in the hobby can do better????? This is why when I put together a project I look for complete groups from one source. If I can get them directly all the better.

With the Graeca group I'll be willing to bet there are thousands of mutts in the UK and I'll also be willing to bed they were produced by the best intentioned keeper.

This discussion is kind of a moot point as far as the Graeca group goes.

[helen1]

Three diffetent tortoises Ed?

Out of interest what are the three?

[EJ]

there's a dark one, a light one, and medium colored one. If you saw them in person it would be clearer.


Three diffetent tortoises Ed?

Out of interest what are the three?

[Pussygalore]

ED Now I know this could cause arguements but when you say that you purchased the group of greeks and were angry with what you got does that mean that you either asked someone to find them for you or that you knowingly purchased adult wild caught tortoises :? :? :? :?

[piglet]

Well I have two distinct groups of Tgg and a group T whitei some still refer t0 them as Tgg Algerian type

My Oran group of Tgg is distinctive in apperarance they are unique to Oran and the surrounding area .

My Northern Morocans again unique to there area all conform to type colour and shape , and with expertise from field study photos and researchers I can easily have them Id'd, most if not all Tgg groups are easily identified within a range if you know what your looking for and I do, not that i'm declareing myself an expert at all as I certainly am not but I have a good eye for Tgg and if I needa second opinion I will ask an expert.

D

[EJ]

So you know specificly where they were collected?

I can understand a person who has done extensive field studies being famaliar with a form but I can't see where a hobbiest can look at some tortoises and say that is were it came from.

Without a good sample of knowns I'm quite skeptical. I'm not saying it's impossible...


Well I have two distinct groups of Tgg and a group T whitei some still refer t0 them as Tgg Algerian type

My Oran group of Tgg is distinctive in apperarance they are unique to Oran and the surrounding area .

My Northern Morocans again unique to there area all conform to type colour and shape , and with expertise from field study photos and researchers I can easily have them Id'd, most if not all Tgg groups are easily identified within a range if you know what your looking for and I do, not that i'm declareing myself an expert at all as I certainly am not but I have a good eye for Tgg and if I needa second opinion I will ask an expert.

D

[helen1]

Grrrrr I could see that I thought you meant three different subspecies?

[EJ]

If you'd like to take this conversation private out of respect for Darren, Sarah and SW I'm more than willing. I've already been tagged as a troublemaker and that is certainly not my intent.

You are free to post our exchange where ever you like but I don't see the point of ruffling feathers on this topic. I don't see any benefit of going down that road on this list.

epirog@comcast.net


ED Now I know this could cause arguements but when you say that you purchased the group of greeks and were angry with what you got does that mean that you either asked someone to find them for you or that you knowingly purchased adult wild caught tortoises :? :? :? :?

[EJ]

That's kinda the point... Today they are the same tomorrow they are different... it's a human concept. Do you really think the tortoises care. It might not be natural but keeping all of the species you keep in the UK is not natural either.

This is like a class in ethics... there is no right or wrong only what is socially acceptable at the time.


Grrrrr I could see that I thought you meant three different subspecies?

[helen1]

I give up.

[Eire_Ade]

Phew!!!! What a lengthy post this has turned out to be. :roll: :roll: :roll: :lol: :lol:

I from my own personal experiences have chosen not to mix subspecies because .........

Before my Golden Greek was identified I got 2 TGI hatchlings which were quarentined from my Golden Greek, to my amazement though, one of the babies managed to climb over the divider and into the space where the Golden Greek was, and subsequently this encounter to my disbelief and whitnessed by a reputable keeper we both observed the starting of a runny nose which was sucessfully treated immediately.

There is a saying "ignorance is bliss", but when you know what you are doing is not right then it is no longer ignorance is it???

Debate is good for a forum, but tbh when a single poster is the main person who upsets the apple cart every time giving his opinion which is definately a minority opinion on this forum, tbh people should just choose to either dismiss or ignore it if at all possible, and if the poster doesnt like what he is reading then perhaps he should consider no longer posting on this forum as his views are simply going against what we at Shelled Warriors stand for.

Shelled Warriors is a fantastic forum and I for one wouild hate to see it dragged down for the sake of opinions which to me seem very archaic and outdated.
Since the 1970's people in the UK have kept tortoises outdoors and fed them weeds, I did with mine as a child, not a viv, tortoise table, uv lights or pellets to be seen anywhere. I know things have progressed to UV and heat lamps for the better, vivs were tried but were found unsucessfull so the tortoise table was the optimal indoor housing and as for the pellets they are simply inappropriate for Med species tortoises who require a low protein diet.

Thats all I have to say on the matter.

I will not be getting into a further debate on this as words seem to get quoted, requoted and read differently to mean something different just to get another spin on things, and personally I think it is simply attention seeking.

Ade :wink:

[sandy]

I agree Ade I have jumped off the roundabout<g>.

[Pussygalore]

ED I have no intentions of getting into a private conversation with you, you posted the picture and made the comments I am merely asking what you meant by them, and how you came by a group of tortoises that came from different altitudes as you said, if you choose not to answer then that is your choice, like you are so keen to point out this is a site that likes to hear both sides.

[EJ]

What I meant by the picture is that I have a good idea of the origin... they are different... it is an example of perception... nothing more.





ED I have no intentions of getting into a private conversation with you, you posted the picture and made the comments I am merely asking what you meant by them, and how you came by a group of tortoises that came from different altitudes as you said, if you choose not to answer then that is your choice, like you are so keen to point out this is a site that likes to hear both sides.

[Pussygalore]

thanks ED nice convenient well thought answer, makes a change nice and short as well. :D :D :D :D

[helen1]

I dont think we need to resort to digs and presumptions. Perhaps this thread has run its course?

[EJ]

I have no problem discussing my actions and experience but I like this list and the people who run it. I know they would not appreciate that conversation.

If you are seriously concerned or inquisitive... I'm always open... off list.


thanks ED nice convenient well thought answer, makes a change nice and short as well. :D :D :D :D

[tort71]

For the sake of logic and nothing else where are the pathogens coming from? Unless we are all harboring wild caught tortoises or adult tortoises with unknown history, how can tortoise X carry a pathogen that is lethal to tortoise Y? It's like we're almost assuming that each species of tortoise just magically has the strain that kills the other. Lastly do you all really believe that the different species of tortoise is like comparing a cow to a sheep? Why wouldn't it be more appropriate to say it's like comparing different types of dogs?

[Pussygalore]

Helen I'm sure ED is old enough to fight his own battles :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Pussygalore]

sorry have you never heard the saying, perhaps I should have said then he doesn't need his followers to put forward his side of the discussion :roll: :roll: :roll:

[chris_walton]

DOES EVERYONE FEEL THE ORIGINAL QUESTION HAS BEEN ANSWERED AND IF SO WHY ARE YOU DRAGGING ALL THIS **** INTO SOMEONES ELSES POST

IF YOU WANT TO HAVE HEATED DISSCUSIONS WHY DONT YOU START YOU OWN THREADS INSTEAD OF SPOILING SOMEONE ELSES

[Eire_Ade]

Here here, well said Chris.

OT.

I can do big typing too :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Ade :wink:

[Jo666]

I don't want an argument with anyone, but I would like to add my comments, if its okay, not sure if anyone wants anymore posts added to this (sorry if that's the case Chris)

I don't mix species, or sub species. I rescued a male whitei about 18 months ago, I was led to believe he was T.G.G. He had been kept with a male T.G.G. for 30 years as a 'companion'. Sadly, for 30 years Roger was pretty miserable, he was continually bullied and bashed by the more dominant and aggressive T.G.G. and became very withdrawn and suffered lots of shell damage as a result.
I was very worried about introducing him to another tortoise, I felt he really needed some time on his own, but after 12 months intensive TLC I decided to take the risk and introduce him to a much, much larger whitei female (thanks Piglet :D ) and he is like a different tortoise. Mixing with his own species he has become more active and outgoing, his appetite and general demenour has competely changed. He now seems very very happy to be with his own kind, after all, being the same species, they understand each others behaviour and are designed to cope with it.

[helen1]

This is a good example of when mixing torts doesnt work. Two males can be aggressive to one another, male/female of different species can cause horrendous damage. I had two males of the same species that would have killed one another if I hadnt seperated them, For the most part females of same and different species are much less inclined to "fall out". I prefer to keep my males and females apart because one ..I dont breed and two... male iberas especially get quite aggressive. As most of my torts are rescues, they have been through enough so it is "no sex please we are british" at ours!!!..joke

This is a control issue.. I admit this.......

[Jason1]

Ed said that species was a human concept. From my high school biology the definition of a species is "two organisms that can reproduce live fertile offspring" so surely the idea of a species is not just a concept but an observation of whatever it happens to be, and whether or not they can breed to produce fertile offspring, not just because they look different. I agree that animals probably dont care what species they are otherwise we wouldn't get hybrids. A question though, is the product of two sub species a hybrid? i.e thh and thb and would the offspring be fertile?

I dont think different pathogens have anything to do with mixing torts from a similar area, just that if one becomes stressed it is less capable of fighting off disease so may become ill. as helen said I would imagine a group of female meds whatever the species would probably live together with no problems. It is probably down to individual characters as even a female could become dominant to a point were stress levels rose and illness took hold in a less dominant tort. I suppose when illness strikes the levels of pathogens in one particular member would rise and put others in the groups at greater risk so maybe this is the reason that some who have mixed have lost a whole group rather than one individual.

I would never place a different species in with my hermans as I would be devestated if I lost any and as so many think it is dangerous I wouldn't risk it. i do wonder though whether there is any difference what species you introduce to a group whether it be the same or different. If the new member upsets the balance illness could break out whatever the situation.

Jason

[Pussygalore]

I don't fully understand the technical side of pathogens etc but I can compare it say to the varying tribes of remote countries where each different one has imunity to its own diseases but has never come accross diseases that other tribes may have so hence when they meet something that wouldn't harm one of the tribes could be potentially fatal to the other, someone please tell me if I'm on the right track, if I am that same theory would apply to any creature that comes either from isolated areas or lives alone and rarely meets others, I know animals travel but if they lived on an island they would never come across diseases from anything other than those on their island, am I right in thinking that the majority of torts don't live in groups and that there may only be one type in one area again I would think that the amount of food available would play a big part in what could live there if that is so then logic says they would have no imunity against anything other than their own diseases, if I'm on the right track would that apply to captive bred torts as well or just wild ones, I'm only a dumb blond but am I any where near.

[Becks]

lalalalalalalalalalala Sorry im still singing from my own hymn book :D

[sarah]

Right ive had enough. This thread is way to long. Everyone has had there say.

No more post after this please. If you wish to discuss it futher please pm me.

[Pussygalore]

sorry for speaking then ! but I was actually trying to understand something or at least put it into terms that make sense to me I was expecting a constructive answer :? :? :?

[nina]

I was enjoying the discussion, and there weren't personal insults flying around (nearly were, but not quite). Surely people don't have to read the thread if they don't like it. Anyway, I accept that the thread is closed, but I'm not sure why length is such a bad thing <g>.

[sarah]

Please pm each other if you want to carry it on.

[EJ]

deleted by Sarah please read above posts.

I don't fully understand the technical side of pathogens etc but I can compare it say to the varying tribes of remote countries where each different one has imunity to its own diseases but has never come accross diseases that other tribes may have so hence when they meet something that wouldn't harm one of the tribes could be potentially fatal to the other, someone please tell me if I'm on the right track, if I am that same theory would apply to any creature that comes either from isolated areas or lives alone and rarely meets others, I know animals travel but if they lived on an island they would never come across diseases from anything other than those on their island, am I right in thinking that the majority of torts don't live in groups and that there may only be one type in one area again I would think that the amount of food available would play a big part in what could live there if that is so then logic says they would have no imunity against anything other than their own diseases, if I'm on the right track would that apply to captive bred torts as well or just wild ones, I'm only a dumb blond but am I any where near.