closed chambers

[vikki]

I have been reading a lot on an international (but mainly American) forum about closed chambers, these generally appear to be similar to vivariums but are kept very humid and seem to mainly be used for young tortoises in the belief that it produces smoother growth. Anyone with any thoughts etc? There is also somebody doing an experiment at not using heat lamps but instead using lights/uv and heat panels - in view of the increasing awareness of the dehydrating effects of heat lamps it could be interesting to see results. I realise that as much time outdoors is always best but wondered what others views of these sort of methods are?

[sandy]

I have been reading a lot on an international (but mainly American) forum about closed chambers, these generally appear to be similar to vivariums but are kept very humid and seem to mainly be used for young tortoises in the belief that it produces smoother growth. Anyone with any thoughts etc? There is also somebody doing an experiment at not using heat lamps but instead using lights/uv and heat panels - in view of the increasing awareness of the dehydrating effects of heat lamps it could be interesting to see results. I realise that as much time outdoors is always best but wondered what others views of these sort of methods are?

The Americans have a much different approach to tortoise keeping than we do (although they say they don't) a lot of them are collectors rather than keepers.
Viva can be used for certain Chelonia, but on the whole most here would not use them. I for one like too keep my tortoises as much like the wild as possible. Usually in the wild Chelonia have different temperatures through out the day, which in most viva this is impossible, and good air circulation is near impossible.
I can grow smooth tortoises my way. I keep small and adults the same way.

[vikki]

This is what I am thinking and they seem to really shun open tables completely. Some of the set ups are quite bizarre and completely encased in plastic and foil and you cant even see into them but I suppose this goes with them being collectors as I would hate to not see my tortoises. I do wonder how they thermoregulate in this enclosures and what other health problems may be caused, on the other hand in the wild they would not have one hot spot and then cool areas - the ambient temperature would be high and they would then have to find a cooler area in the shade, by digging etc. Don't worry I am not going to go and buy big sheets of plastic(!!) but find it interesting to get views on different forms of husbandry as I think we should always consider all the pros and cons of different methods:)

[Daryn]

As far as the lamps go Im actually going to try and not use them this year. Im wanting to use the tube heater only and see how it goes instead. I hate them lamps blasting down on top of them.

[CherryBrandy]

I think too vikki I remember reading some american's in cooler climes didn't like tables because in the winter they lost so much heat and didn't see the point of that so they opted for more closed in type. Interesting though. I tend to like the natural effect rain or shine but can see overwintering etc they are ideal. I actually could collect them too - I know that is sad or perhaps weird !! but there is something said for the wooden ones, ornate ones bit like wooden sheds.....and hutches.

[pagan queen]

I have just had a look at some of them and they look amazing. I keep mine in a viv and they are thriving. Nice shells and happy torts. I don't use the UV lamps, just a normal bulb for heat and a stat in the winter. It is easier to keep the humidity up in a viv. I wouldn't change to a table now even if I had the room.

[emma_mcraf]

I hadn't heard of these closed chambers prior to your post. Off to google them....

[Pussygalore]

whats the difference between them and a wooden viv? apart from many seem to be home made

[Ozric Jonathan]

whats the difference between them and a wooden viv? apart from many seem to be home made

They are literally airtight. To make sure there is no movement of air or escape of moisture. Like a bottle garden only with a cork.

[vikki]

They do seem to vary a lot - some are quite attractive and others look horrendous all wrapped in plastic - their main concern seems to be keeping humidity in especially for smaller growing tortoises and even in areas where they have ideal weather they do not seem to put them out at all - I have to say a lot of them do seem to grow smooth shells but difficult to know if this is as a result of habitat or other factors. also not sure what the reasoning behind it is as surely in the wild they would never be subject to such high levels of humidity, but I suppose neither would they have basking lamps:lol:
There always seem to be very convincing pros and cons about different methods- table/viv/closed chamber that it can be difficult to know what to do for the best and then there are new ideas such as not using lamps but tubes/panel heaters - I guess this ids part of what makes keeping tortoises interesting but also confusing and slightly frustrating as a newbie to know what to do for the best - we will never really be able to give them the same conditions that they have in the wild so what to do for the best?!!:confused:

[vikki]

Daryn a thread on a well known .org forum titled "2015 Growth Experiment" may interest you as this is what is being used instead of bulbs - I think your tortoises are mainly outside which will be different but still quite an interesting read.
Not sure if I am allowed to directly refer to other forums?

[Ozric Jonathan]

My experience is only with hermanns and I'm quite certain that contraptions of this sort are not necessary for them for UK keepers.

Certainly some tortoise species do need more humidity than you get over an open table in a typical UK home. Humidity levels of 70%+ are difficult to achieve over an open area and some forest species have those requirements.

Having said that, the humidity debate isn't resolved even for Mediterranean species. For a while we were encouraged to think that really small mediterranean tortoises in the wild lived at the bottom of piles of vegetation and various secret places where there was loads of humidity. Andy Highfield debunked that idea totally with field research and his view is that the small ones in reality spend their time in places with similar humidity to the larger ones. I still don't know what to think in that respect because for years there was a view that smaller tortoises had this need for greater humidity.


One thing that seems to have been right all along is that for the Mediterranean species at least, they do better outside. If the weather and conditions are at all tolerable, get them outside. Once out there, they know better than we can how to make the best of it. As a keeper I'm nowadays seeing myself as being someone who intervenes to enable them to be outside as much as possible.

[Pussygalore]

I believe that the oldest living torts in the uk are those that have lived outside most of their lives with many fending for themselves, the ones that seem to have more problems are those which are those which are kept as far away from natural as possible. I'm a great believer in any animal having the chance to build up its natural resistancys and it can only do that if exposed to the world around it, yes we can keep them artificially and in this country we do have to offer some help due to the climate but there are some keepers who seem to keep animals with almost a scientific view which is fine but I don't believe we can better what nature intended and the animals mental state is as important as its health.

[vikki]

I agree - you see some amazing looking (lovely smooth shells etc) old tortoises that seem to have basically lived in the garden all of their lives. I know that it also isn't necessarily ideal to leave them to fend for themselves to the extent that some do and lots of tortoises died from this but definitely those that have adapted to it look amazing - possibly a case of survival of the fittest?!

[Ozric Jonathan]

Vikki one idea is that those tortoises all formed their shape in the natural environment because they were adults when they were collected. This would suggest that their smooth growth has nothing to do with the conditions they have expereinced here in the UK.

Under natural conditions, those species which 'ought' to have smooth shells usually grow in that way, but not always. 'Lumpy' tortoises have also been found in the wild.

I don't think there is any real adaptation with tortoises that were brought to the UK. I've changed my mind totally about that and I don't think any adaptation happens . Some of those 'garden tortoises' survived because they were tough and resilient creatures who had spent long periods of time developing normally in their countries of origin. They made the best of the conditions they were given and for some of them life continued.

[JerryMaffz]

One thing that seems to have been right all along is that for the Mediterranean species at least, they do better outside. If the weather and conditions are at all tolerable, get them outside. Once out there, they know better than we can how to make the best of it. As a keeper I'm nowadays seeing myself as being someone who intervenes to enable them to be outside as much as possible.

I think I am now of the same mindset. My 11 month old Hermann has been outside 24/7 without additional heat or light (just a coldframe/climate frame) since mid May and he seems to be thriving. Steadily gaining weight, smooth growth, bright eyes and on the few times I've handled him he has struggled strongly to get back in his enclosure:grin:.
The lowest overnight temp has been 7 degrees and the highest daytime up in the 30's. It has been intersesting to take carapace temp. measurements with the IR thermometer which have given me much reassurance.
I have only intervened a couple of times and brought him inside when we've encountered those torrential downpours and that's only because he does insist on spending his nights in scrapes under plants rather than go inside his shelter. To be honest he would've probably rather been out in it
I can perhaps see the point of those closed chambers for tropical species in colder areas but personally I think Med. keepers (in the UK, at least) need not concern themselves with them.

[vikki]

I agree with you Keith - my two are definitely happier outside. I just find all the different opinions and the thinking behind them very interesting but for me for now it will definitely be outdoors as much as possible then table when needed indoors. I am however interested in how it will work not using basking lights especially for those times indoors however the person doing this in America is using a viv type set up and guess it would probably only work indoors with that because you couldn't do it with an open top table as the heat from panel/tubular heaters would rise too quickly to keep temps up and benefit the tortoise - hmmmm maybe that idea wont work for me!!

[Ozric Jonathan]

Keith I think your experience shows that with a well-thought out enclosure and some half decent weather we don't need to be constantly burning electricity to maintain hermanns outdoors in the summer months.

If Gerry wasn't active and feeding you would notice and by taking his temperature you can be sure that he is able to digest his meals.

I always say that the 'rules' about keeping tortoises indoors such as the 32C basking spot and the 20C ambient temperature just do not apply at all outside. But of course just plonking a mediterranean tortoise outside in the UK won't work.

[JerryMaffz]

Keith I think your experience shows that with a well-thought out enclosure and some half decent weather we don't need to be constantly burning electricity to maintain hermanns outdoors in the summer months.

If Gerry wasn't active and feeding you would notice and by taking his temperature you can be sure that he is able to digest his meals.

I always say that the 'rules' about keeping tortoises indoors such as the 32C basking spot and the 20C ambient temperature just do not apply at all outside. But of course just plonking a mediterranean tortoise outside in the UK won't work.

I'm very lucky in that I live in a sheltered valley which seems to miss a lot of inclement weather and the enclosure is exposed to the sun for about 9 hours a day at this time of year..It's worth pointing out that my experience is in it's infancy, but so far I have seen no reason to deviate from the current husbandry...Your point about just plonking a Med. Tortoise outside is valid, hopefully the days of the "Garden Tortoise" are long gone.

With regard to the 32c basking, 20c ambient 'rules'. I agree, they don't seem to apply outside because nature doesn't really follow rules, which leads me to hypothesise the possibility that they may not apply inside. I am of course playing devils advocate here, but with the tortoises known ability to raise it's temperature way above it's heat source, wouldn't it be viable to have a lower temp. with the tortoise just basking for a longer period?..I'd be interested to hear experienced keepers views.

[Daryn]

Daryn a thread on a well known .org forum titled "2015 Growth Experiment" may interest you as this is what is being used instead of bulbs - I think your tortoises are mainly outside which will be different but still quite an interesting read.
Not sure if I am allowed to directly refer to other forums?

Could you send me a pm with the link please, Im not sure of the rules regarding giving out links on the main forum either although I think in cases like these topics it might be allowed.

[vikki]

Hi Daryn - have sent a pm with details but if you need anymore info let me know:)

[Daryn]

Thanks Vikki just read up on what they have done. Although they have set up for indoor use my idea was just to use the tube heater this year in their outside coldframe instead of the lamps when it gets cold to see how it goes.

Im yet to start anything new on mine as I have two enclosures to build for other people one will be getting built next week.

[vikki]

Keep us posted on how it goes:smile:

[Anyfoot]

Hi all. I keep 2 species of torts. Kinixys homeana hingebacks and redfoots(northerns and Brazilians). Both species are tropical and do not hibernate. I keep all my torts in the closed chamber method. I have to to get the 80% + humidity levels that are required. Both these species endure rainforest type weathers within an annual climate. Yeah there are some periods for the redfoots where it's hot and arid, but then again lush fruits and green foliage is not in abundance during these arid periods so they don't grow. During seasons that provide fruits etc and humidity is high they will grow more, because of high humidity and rainfall they won't pyramid. If I was to feed my redfoots in dry conditions you would get pyramiding.
In my vivs I have a CHE at one end with a fluorescent uvb tube. This gives an ambient temp and no hot spots. So at the heated end it's at 30°c and at the cool end it's 27°c.
In my big viv I have a rain system on a timer.

[Lynnie Lou]

Hi all. I keep 2 species of torts. Kinixys homeana hingebacks and redfoots(northerns and Brazilians). Both species are tropical and do not hibernate. I keep all my torts in the closed chamber method. I have to to get the 80% + humidity levels that are required. Both these species endure rainforest type weathers within an annual climate. Yeah there are some periods for the redfoots where it's hot and arid, but then again lush fruits and green foliage is not in abundance during these arid periods so they don't grow. During seasons that provide fruits etc and humidity is high they will grow more, because of high humidity and rainfall they won't pyramid. If I was to feed my redfoots in dry conditions you would get pyramiding.
In my vivs I have a CHE at one end with a fluorescent uvb tube. This gives an ambient temp and no hot spots. So at the heated end it's at 30°c and at the cool end it's 27°c.
In my big viv I have a rain system on a timer.

Any pics? :)

[Anyfoot]

Hi. Have a look in pictures section. I posted some.

[Yvonne G]

I realize this is an old thread, but I just wanted to add my two cents. The idea of a "closed chamber" originated in Germany. In the States, Jerry Fife and his brother in Arizona took it up and started talking about it. Several U.S. keepers took it upon themselves to experiment with their sulcata and leopard babies and showed the experiments online.

The reasoning behind the closed chamber is this: Sulcatas and leopards hatch out in the monsoon season when there is plenty of greenery, lots of hiding places and it's warm/hot and humid, with the ground being either wet or very damp. This helps the sulcata and leopard babies to grow smoothly and more or less eliminates pyramiding in these species.

Keeping hatchling sulcatas and leopards in a closed chamber makes it easier to keep the environment moist and humid. The covered enclosure keeps the cooler air from your house out and the warm, moist air inside.

I have been keep hatchling leopard tortoises in a Vision Cage until my partner takes them to sell, and the babies all grow smoothly and thrive in the warm, humid environment. There is no basking light. There is no hot side/cool side. The whole interior of the enclosure is 80-85F degrees, with a tube type fluorescent UVB light and a radiant heat panel for heat.

My method for raising leopard babies was hot and dry. I kept them on alfalfa pellets under a hot mercury vapor bulb. I soaked them once a week. Needless to say, my leopard babies were bumpy. It was hard for me to change. All of us here in the turtle club raised babies this way. It was the way to do it. But, change I did, and I'm so happy I did.

We should all learn and grow. Just because we've been doing it the same way for years doesn't mean that way is the right way.

[CherryBrandy]

Hello Yvonne, thank you for this , its very interesting. I don't think a lot of us in the UK have tried it and as you say if it works well then time for change. I wonder if it would be so successful here though because of the ambient temps but I suppose you are replicate anything anywhere.... I do add lumisol to all my houses just to create some humidity during the summer but nothing on this scale of course and for your spur....please do keep posting ! CB

[Yvonne G]

I've got to make one more post before I can post pictures, so this is the one more. I'll post pictures of my closed chambers right after this post.

[Yvonne G]

Well, I'm sorry, but I guess I won't be able to show you my closed chambers. I don't see where I can make an attachment. I'll figure it out eventually.

[emma_mcraf]

Well, I'm sorry, but I guess I won't be able to show you my closed chambers. I don't see where I can make an attachment. I'll figure it out eventually.

Hi Yvonne,
You need to use an image hosting site such as Imgur, upload your photos to it and then copy the code for message boards and paste that code into your post on this forum. Hope that makes sense. :-)

[burnt toast]

Emma do you use a lap top of your phone? I downloaded the app but it kept saying it had an error, so I have now deleted. It's a great shame because I have thousands of pictures of love to share!

[emma_mcraf]

Emma do you use a lap top of your phone? I downloaded the app but it kept saying it had an error, so I have now deleted. It's a great shame because I have thousands of pictures of love to share!

Old school, I’m afraid Lynn - I use my desk top, but I presume a laptop would work the same.
I don’t have an Imgur app. I just created an account on their website and uploaded photos.