Me rambling on!!

[alley cat]

I was reading the thread about Vitashell just now and it has got me thinking!

There are comments in the other thread regarding tortoises in the wild not needing oil on their shells and the need for humidity. It occured to me that there has also recently been mention of split scutes among wild tortoises and also that there are alot of tortoises for sale on sites such as Gumtree and Preloved with awful looking shells, well these are my thoughts....

The way I understand it is that if you get a scute that sticks a bit to another as the tortoise grows this can be helped by moisurising the area to free up the scutes. Wild tortoises probably get a certain amount of natural oils on their shells due to rubbing against plants as they trundle around, now if the tortoise happens to live in a very arid landscape then it is likely the plants will also be of a dry nature so the tortoise may not get much oil being deposited onto it, so do they have badly grown shells? this is where the humidity bit comes in as I have seen people say that lack of humidity shows as bumpy shell growth in tortoises that live in these dry areas, so could it be a combination of the two? is it more one than the other?

Back to the Gumtree and Preloved tortoises...do they look like this due to lack of humidity mainly? if so then they could be in a similar condition health wise to the wild tortoises that are lacking humidity. I realise there are many other factors that would also play a part but tortoises and humidity was not a combination that I would have been aware of in my earlier tortoise keeping days. It also seems to have become much more of an issue since UVB lamps and indoor tables were recommended as part of the keepers kit, instead of keeping them in the garden (which is also not the answer)

We are all striving to grow tortoises with a perfect smooth shell growth and in reality all tortoises do not look like that, many factors affect what the tortoises in the wild end up looking like the same as they do with the ones in captivity.

Have we really improved the outcome for tortoises with the introduction of indoor living and artificial UVB? What will future figures reveal about the tortoises we are caring for now? Will they live longer lives than many that have gone before?

[egyptiandan64]

Sticking scute seams don't usually just happen because of low humidity but from a combination of low humidity and not doing any growing for an extended period of time. Both together don't usually happen in the wild but it's possible.
The problem with lack of humidity in captivity is that small tortoise can dehydrate over night if not humid enough. This does damage to the liver and kidneys and if it happens enough it can compromise these organs and make it so they don't function properly. This makes it hard to take the nutrients needed out of the food received. This in turn would make a good diet inadequate and to low in nutrients needed. This would in turn contribute to the pyramiding.

Danny

[becciwales]

So much to learn!!!

Outdoors wouldn't be as drying as indoors with central heating and aricicial light. BUT air humidity, it's 74-90% humidity in Wales, do the torts, my torts benefit from air humidity in their enclosure? I water the coir, but I worry about pyramiding and causing them harm.

[egyptiandan64]

A drink before bed can't hurt :D and make sure the spot they sleep is a bit damp.

Danny

[becciwales]

Thank you x

[alley cat]

Sticking scute seams don't usually just happen because of low humidity but from a combination of low humidity and not doing any growing for an extended period of time. Both together don't usually happen in the wild but it's possible.
The problem with lack of humidity in captivity is that small tortoise can dehydrate over night if not humid enough. This does damage to the liver and kidneys and if it happens enough it can compromise these organs and make it so they don't function properly. This makes it hard to take the nutrients needed out of the food received. This in turn would make a good diet inadequate and to low in nutrients needed. This would in turn contribute to the pyramiding.

Danny

With sticking scutes I was meaning more about the lack of natural oils being a problem.

If wild tortoises live in an area with low humidity, they would pesumably have the same issues then that captive table reared ones may have with regard to their Liver and Kidneys and the absorbsion of nutrients?

[Suze65]

I have read about tortoises having slightly bumpy scutes in the wild, ( one persons observation, not a scientific research ) in areas where there seems to be less water to drink, so the amount they have available to drink + humidity + nutrients all goes towards smooth shell growth. Also ( and I'm probably very wrong ) I have read that when the torts in the wild hide under woody shrubs, this constant brushing against the shell also contributes towards smooth shell growth ( maybe that's the oils ) .

Just another point for anyone who still thinks too much food is the problem, just recently my sister in law went on a walking holiday in the southern peloponese, she noticed ( in April) a plentyful supply of " wicked weeds" . So they can eat as much as they like at that time of year, and the temps were warm ( not hot ) and some days quite cool .

[sandy]

I have read about tortoises having slightly bumpy scutes in the wild, ( one persons observation, not a scientific research ) in areas where there seems to be less water to drink, so the amount they have available to drink + humidity + nutrients all goes towards smooth shell growth. Also ( and I'm probably very wrong ) I have read that when the torts in the wild hide under woody shrubs, this constant brushing against the shell also contributes towards smooth shell growth ( maybe that's the oils ) .

Just another point for anyone who still thinks too much food is the problem, just recently my sister in law went on a walking holiday in the southern peloponese, she noticed ( in April) a plentyful supply of " wicked weeds" . So they can eat as much as they like at that time of year, and the temps were warm ( not hot ) and some days quite cool .

The same works over here for weeds, I always sort of feed up my tortoises from May until around the beginning of August. I sow my seeds in October all over the garden. So they germinate and grow for when my tortoises come out of hibernation. They are sort of over fed, or make pigs of themselves on the weeds. Then in August I have lots of hibiscus flowers and lavvy flowers along with any weeds that are still around. This tends to be less amounts of food. Then at the beginning of September my tortoises have already began to slow down ( you can hardly notice this, but they have) so can come out and graze as they wish, with the odd top up of food now and again. Then as the days get really short, they will be ready for hibernation.

[Pussygalore]

I would still imagine that because of our higher rainfall through the summer that our weeds and plants would be richer than those in climates where rain is very infrequent through the summer. Weeds might be abundant in the spring but I doubt they be green and fresh for long, whenever we've been to med its been very dry and the plants aren't much more than dried up brownish weeds not the green lush ones we can find most of the year. I don't think we can replicate the natural diet unless we actually live there we all know how quickly our garden plants,grass etc will die if we don't water them if we do have a dry spell well doesn't the med etc have a 'dry spell' most of the summer.

[alley cat]

Might be a silly question but as the plants grow the nutrients are in them, if they get dried up by the sun does that remove the nutrients or just the moisture content of the plant? would it mean that the tortoise just drinks more and rehydrates the plants within its system? a bit like adding boiling water to dried packet foods such as stuffing!?

[Suze65]

The same works over here for weeds, I always sort of feed up my tortoises from May until around the beginning of August. I sow my seeds in October all over the garden. So they germinate and grow for when my tortoises come out of hibernation. They are sort of over fed, or make pigs of themselves on the weeds. Then in August I have lots of hibiscus flowers and lavvy flowers along with any weeds that are still around. This tends to be less amounts of food. Then at the beginning of September my tortoises have already began to slow down ( you can hardly notice this, but they have) so can come out and graze as they wish, with the odd top up of food now and again. Then as the days get really short, they will be ready for hibernation.

I completely agree with this, I think we should be trying to follow their natural feeding habits, mine do this, and as Sandy has said they start to very slowly , slow down from September onwards, mine do a natural outdoor wind down, all by themselves. So back to natural feeding habits, rather than restricting food.
I'm going to throw a spanner in the works now :neutral::oops: I think hibernation is part of their natural feeding cycle, ok if know that's going to open a huge can of worms. Yes I know hibernation is a survival strategy, but over thousands of years their natural growth has evolved to fit in with that down time. Hope that makes sense. That's just my theory, I don't mind if people disagree :grin:

[becciwales]

Might be a silly question but as the plants grow the nutrients are in them, if they get dried up by the sun does that remove the nutrients or just the moisture content of the plant? would it mean that the tortoise just drinks more and rehydrates the plants within its system? a bit like adding boiling water to dried packet foods such as stuffing!?

I would think it would remove a lot of the nutrients, when we cook veg, much of the original nutrients are destroyed. But obviously cooking them is different to being dried/baked by the sun, so I may be wrong. x

[becciwales]

I completely agree with this, I think we should be trying to follow their natural feeding habits, mine do this, and as Sandy has said they start to very slowly , slow down from September onwards, mine do a natural outdoor wind down, all by themselves. So back to natural feeding habits, rather than restricting food.
I'm going to throw a spanner in the works now :neutral::oops: I think hibernation is part of their natural feeding cycle, ok if know that's going to open a huge can of worms. Yes I know hibernation is a survival strategy, but over thousands of years their natural growth has evolved to fit in with that down time. Hope that makes sense. That's just my theory, I don't mind if people disagree :grin:

I agree with you. BUT I also think that you have to be competent and knowledgeable enough before starting the process, it can't be good for them to start the process then be yanked out if it by a panicking keeper, I'm the first to admit I haven't done it. I'd only had Darwin a few weeks by hibernation time last year, I also don't think Galileo would be suitable for hibernating this year. I am planning on reading up on it and may try next year.

I'm also of the thought though, that hibernation is to survive, I can provide year round sun and UV, is it necessary to hibernate them then?

So to sum up, I really don't know!! :lol::roll:

[Ozric Jonathan]

The mediterranean species in the wild experience periods in the summer where it is too hot a lot of the time for them to be out and about. There is also not much food at that time due to the low rainfall and high temperatures. So they just hang out in shady areas avoiding the heat. For those of us keeping these species in the UK, there is no point in the year when we are copying these conditions. Our hottest summer conditions are more or less like spring in the Med.

For this and other reasons I don't think we can talk too much of tortoises experiencing anything like natural conditions in the UK. Although I am saying this from the point of view of having just about the worst tortoise keeping weather in the UK and the situation is maybe very different on the south coast!

[Suze65]

The mediterranean species in the wild experience periods in the summer where it is too hot a lot of the time for them to be out and about. There is also not much food at that time due to the low rainfall and high temperatures. So they just hang out in shady areas avoiding the heat. For those of us keeping these species in the UK, there is no point in the year when we are copying these conditions. Our hottest summer conditions are more or less like spring in the Med.

For this and other reasons I don't think we can talk too much of tortoises experiencing anything like natural conditions in the UK. Although I am saying this from the point of view of having just about the worst tortoise keeping weather in the UK and the situation is maybe very different on the south coast!

No it isn't exactly the same as med conditions, and it does get a bit closer to it down here than where you are, and when it does get blistering hot, like last summer, I do see my torts do just as you have said, they don't eat much, they go and find shade by about 11am and don't come out again till about 4/5 pm.
But I do think we can try a replicate natural feeding patterns to a point. It will never be exactly the same. And I feel hibernation has evolved to become part of that natural feeding pattern, even though it is a survival strategy. I know many won't agree with that and that's fine, I happy with what I think :grin:

[Suze65]

I agree with you. BUT I also think that you have to be competent and knowledgeable enough before starting the process, it can't be good for them to start the process then be yanked out if it by a panicking keeper, I'm the first to admit I haven't done it. I'd only had Darwin a few weeks by hibernation time last year, I also don't think Galileo would be suitable for hibernating this year. I am planning on reading up on it and may try next year.

I'm also of the thought though, that hibernation is to survive, I can provide year round sun and UV, is it necessary to hibernate them then?

So to sum up, I really don't know!! :lol::roll:

Yes absolutely Becci, you must be confident enough to go ahead with hibernation.
Hibernation is a survival strategy, but I believe that over thousands of years it's become part of their natural life cycle, it is definitely part of their breeding cycle. You don't have to force a tortoise to hibernate, but you do have to force it to stay awake all winter , and that can be difficult with old tors who have hibernated all their lives. And some torts how ever hard you try to keep them going all winter will still slow down for a while. I know some of my hatchlings last winter were sleeping longer during the day by January, and they were plenty warm, and lights on for 12 hours a day.

[becciwales]

Mine slept a lot more too x

[sandy]

I would still imagine that because of our higher rainfall through the summer that our weeds and plants would be richer than those in climates where rain is very infrequent through the summer. Weeds might be abundant in the spring but I doubt they be green and fresh for long, whenever we've been to med its been very dry and the plants aren't much more than dried up brownish weeds not the green lush ones we can find most of the year. I don't think we can replicate the natural diet unless we actually live there we all know how quickly our garden plants,grass etc will die if we don't water them if we do have a dry spell well doesn't the med etc have a 'dry spell' most of the summer.

Exactly, my weeds do dry up at the end of July, I then feed flowers, which tortoises would do in the wild:0)
I would never feed pellet foods, as it goes against my way of keeping tortoises. I also rarely feed salad foods either, as I have enough weeds and flowers not too:0)
I try to feed with the seasons, so in August tortoises rarely get fed anything other than what they can find:0)
They have had more rain in the south of france than we have:0)

[Suze65]

Exactly, my weeds do dry up at the end of July, I then feed flowers, which tortoises would do in the wild:0)
I would never feed pellet foods, as it goes against my way of keeping tortoises. I also rarely feed salad foods either, as I have enough weeds and flowers not too:0)
I try to feed with the seasons, so in August tortoises rarely get fed anything other than what they can find:0)
They have had more rain in the south of france than we have:0)

Like :D:D:D