new arcadia T5 D3+ tubes

[Ozric Jonathan]

This is the fancy new tube.

Anyone used it? If so, what is the uvb spread like and what else have you found about it in use?

Thank-you

[Alan1]

I would like to know too but I've asked this twice before and got no replies :neutral:

Where are you seeing those prices BTW? I was looking here (http://www.surreypetsupplies.co.uk/arcadia-t5-lighting/) but for the 12% reptile bulbs it does not give a length :?

Edit.. going by the wattages and lengths of the 6% bulbs I thing the 12% ones must be 22inch, 34inch and 46inch and prices £19, £21 and £24 and the ballasts £36 for the twin ones

[Ozric Jonathan]

Alan I was looking at the Arcadia T5 electronic controller suitable for 48" T5 tubes which comes in at £59.94 (888Reptiles)

48" T5 tubes D3+ are £29.09 each. I was assuming two if the tubes were to be the uvb source.

Forgetting Jodie's example for a minute, if a keeper has say a 5 foot by 4 foot table then I think this is the set-up they would require using this system and ic omes to £119.12 which is not a cheap way to do it. Thats without reflectors. Heat of course would be provided separately and at additional cost.

It does look like the uvb would be widely spread and there would also be a lot of general light off it.

I don't think the cheaper controller is suitable with this tube.

My reckoning is that just having a short tube of this would not be enough, it would need to be down the whole length on each side of the table. But I could easily be wrong about aspects of this.

[Alan1]

I'm pretty sure the T5 controllers are okay and are just an older model

£36 for the controller, £24 ea for the 46" 12% bulbs http://www.surreypetsupplies.co.uk/arcadia-t5-lighting/

[Ozric Jonathan]

Sorry Alan- checked again and you are correct. I think John was saying the new controller is 'better' in some way but that one at £36 should do it like you say.

With reflectors it would be about £104.

All we need now is someone to actually try it out!

[Alan1]

You would think that someone would have tried them but as I say I have asked a couple of times without success. I might have done it but I wan't to keep going with my MV bulbs to test how long they are still good for so that could be another year away going by the slow rate of deterioration.

The only thing that bothers me about them is the number of electrical sockets I'd need because of the 2 heat bulbs required as well. I only have one socket there and use an extension

[wigwamman]

hi guys, i have t5s retro fitted in fish tank,much brighter than t8s, but i see the extra costs as a stumbling block .i know we all want to do the best for our animals but i have short arms and deep pockets lol.

[burnt toast]

I went to a talk on UV by Francis Bains (I think it was, a vet who studies UV)
Very informative with numerous diagrams, measurements & physical demonstrations indicating the spread, & quality of UV given off by a huge selection of different types of UV emitting bulbs.

Her independant studies showed the Arcadia T5 tubes to be very impressive, with a large area covered & good quality of UV.

I havent yet used them personally.

[Ozric Jonathan]

Thanks Lynn for that. Frances is very knowledgable and has tested a large number of uv emitting lamps over recent years.

As Dave Kirkie noted in another thread, these tubes are really quite high output and might not need reflectors when they are at their best.

[Arcadiajohn]

Hi guys and gals,

The T5 system represents the biggest jump forward in reptile care since we moved from black lights!

These high output lamps emit 2-3 times more light and relative UV than even our T8s. So in short the power of the D3+ is roughly the same as a 100w M.V lamp, but as I always point out, all along the tube!

So good levels of UVA and UVB, 100% protection from UVC and a good natural daylight colour.

They are flicker free due the high output, high frequency controller which is incidentally £40+ cheaper than this time last year.

The cost savings against MV are very high if you have a good separate way of heating the enclosure.

The lamps will last a full YEAR like all Arcadia lamps.

The spread of UV is a very difficult thing to answer in short it is as wide or as short as your reflector allows, the Arcadia T5 reflector is asymmetric and allows you to place light where you want it.

Sorry for the delay in reply, I don't get email alerts from thisnforum so if anything is urgent please feel free to email me at arcadiareptile@Arcadia-uk.com

Hope this answers some questions!

Also see the new PRK mag out this week for the uv readings of T8 vrs T5 with and with our reflectors and against M.V

John.

[EJ]

I just re read this... I can't believe that out of a tube. How long are the tubes?



Are they available in the states?

Hi guys and gals,

The T5 system represents the biggest jump forward in reptile care since we moved from black lights!

These high output lamps emit 2-3 times more light and relative UV than even our T8s. So in short the power of the D3+ is roughly the same as a 100w M.V lamp, but as I always point out, all along the tube!

So good levels of UVA and UVB, 100% protection from UVC and a good natural daylight colour.

They are flicker free due the high output, high frequency controller which is incidentally £40+ cheaper than this time last year.

The cost savings against MV are very high if you have a good separate way of heating the enclosure.

The lamps will last a full YEAR like all Arcadia lamps.

The spread of UV is a very difficult thing to answer in short it is as wide or as short as your reflector allows, the Arcadia T5 reflector is asymmetric and allows you to place light where you want it.

Sorry for the delay in reply, I don't get email alerts from thisnforum so if anything is urgent please feel free to email me at arcadiareptile@Arcadia-uk.com

Hope this answers some questions!

Also see the new PRK mag out this week for the uv readings of T8 vrs T5 with and with our reflectors and against M.V

John.

[Arcadiajohn]

The T5 D3+ 12% with a reflector at 10cms is 550+ mws2. it's very poeerful!

24w,39w,54w

So just under 2 foot, 3 foot and four foot.

See P.R.K out today for all the comparisons.

John.


This is the fancy new tube.

Anyone used it? If so, what is the uvb spread like and what else have you found about it in use?

Thank-you

[Ozric Jonathan]

I've now got a couple of 34" tubes (T5 12% D+) , rated at 39 watts each, and the electronic controller.

First impressions

- the tubes look very thin and very bright

- the light is very white (not yellow)

- uvb output is impressive for a tube

- due to the output of the tubes they are about 40 cm above the substrate, so they cover a decent sized area

[Alan1]

do they light up the whole table to a decent light level?

[Arcadiajohn]

They will get brighter and more powerful every day for about 5 days as they burn in. Then stable for a year, based on 8-10 hours a day.

John

[Ozric Jonathan]

do they light up the whole table to a decent light level?

In my case there will always be other lights on as well - halogen for heat, and other (non uv) strip lighting.

Using them without reflectors isn't a good idea for me because there is too much intense light for my eyes when I am in the tortoise room for any length of time. I need it pointed downwards.

Once I have the reflectors there will be a lot more brightness and uv going in the right direction and I can get a better idea of the spread and intensity.

[Ozric Jonathan]

I have the reflectors in place now and these work very well. The general light and uvb under the strips is greatly increased.

Tomorrow I will take some uvb readings at different distances.

[yuna1971]

Whats the lux capacity on these bulbs...the lux output??

[Ozric Jonathan]

http://www.arcadia-uk.info/product.php?pid=97&mid=12&lan=en&sub=&id=

Doesn't give the lux output Rach, but there is some info there.

Probably depends what length tube you have. The one I got is 34" and 39 watts each tube.

[yuna1971]

Cheers bud. xx:)

[Ozric Jonathan]

Here are a few rough readings of uvb from the Ardacia 34" 39 watt T5 tube D3+ reptile strip light with the reflectors in place.

at 10 cm........430 uWcm2

at 20 cm.......220 uWcm2

at 30 cm.......150 uWcm2

at 40 cm....... 100 uWcm2

at 50 cm....... 70 uWcm2

In my set-up the strips are 40 cm above the substrate and are covering a wide area with a level around 100 uWcm2.

The uvb generated at 10 cm is beyond levels found in nature and at 20 cm the 220 uWcm2 is equivalent to the upper end of 'full sun'. I think that a distance of at least 30 cm from tube to tortoise would be suitable for mediterranean tortoises.

These tubes do produce relatively high amounts of uvb compared to what we have been used to from strip lights.

For a quick comparison, the arcadia 100 watt combined heat and uvb bulb at 20cm produces about 125 uWcm2. The arcadia tube makes their combined lamp look feeble.

Care with setting up is important.

I'm not quite sure the best way for me to use these tubes yet. I think they could be used in combination with simple halogen lamps for heat. At the moment I have combined uv and heat lamps in this set-up as well as the tubes but the uvb spread isn't overlapping.

The tortoises have not shown any sign of wanting to avoid the light so far. The uv they are getting from the tubes in my set-up is about 100 uWcm2 in my set-up.

Cash wise it was £32 for the controller plus £22 for each tube. At there isnt any heat. But I think most of us find that the combined heat and uvb lamps do not provide enough heat on their own anyway so we alreday doing that. Is it necessary to have a combined heat and uvb source as well as the tubes? I don't know.

[16 shells]

Thank's for the info Jonathan.

[romski]

Here are a few rough readings of uvb from the Ardacia 34" 39 watt T5 tube D3+ reptile strip light with the reflectors in place.

at 10 cm........430 uWcm2

at 20 cm.......220 uWcm2

at 30 cm.......150 uWcm2

at 40 cm....... 100 uWcm2

at 50 cm....... 70 uWcm2

In my set-up the strips are 40 cm above the substrate and are covering a wide area with a level around 100 uWcm2.

The uvb generated at 10 cm is beyond levels found in nature and at 20 cm the 220 uWcm2 is equivalent to the upper end of 'full sun'. I think that a distance of at least 30 cm from tube to tortoise would be suitable for mediterranean tortoises.

These tubes do produce relatively high amounts of uvb compared to what we have been used to from strip lights.

For a quick comparison, the arcadia 100 watt combined heat and uvb bulb at 20cm produces about 125 uWcm2. The arcadia tube makes their combined lamp look feeble.

Care with setting up is important.

I'm not quite sure the best way for me to use these tubes yet. I think they could be used in combination with simple halogen lamps for heat. At the moment I have combined uv and heat lamps in this set-up as well as the tubes but the uvb spread isn't overlapping.

The tortoises have not shown any sign of wanting to avoid the light so far. The uv they are getting from the tubes in my set-up is about 100 uWcm2 in my set-up.

Cash wise it was £32 for the controller plus £22 for each tube. At there isnt any heat. But I think most of us find that the combined heat and uvb lamps do not provide enough heat on their own anyway so we alreday doing that. Is it necessary to have a combined heat and uvb source as well as the tubes? I don't know.

Thats quite interesting.
Remember though that the 6.2 also measures a good deal of UVa content and the reading is an integral of all the wavelengths it sees. So until there is a calibration of the lamp against the meter it is not possible to say how much of the reading comprises the useful UVb at D3 wavelengths.

Nevertheless, I have seen Frances's charts for UVb and they are spectacularly good.

Rom

[Ozric Jonathan]

Rom has a better grasp of the science but my reading of it is that:

the solartech 6.2 measures at the range 280 to 320 mn.

Our uvb waves are at 280 to 315mn.

Meanwhile the Uva is at 315 to 400 mn.

So the meter can detect all the uvb that is landing on it, but can detect only a tiny part of the uva range. So the reading on the meter is overwhelmingly reflecting the uvb and only taking a very minor account of the available uva.

[Arcadiajohn]

These numbers are almost identical to our in house lab results and Frances report. Where she said they were the perfect lamp!

These numbers will stay stable now based on a normal photoperiod until at least month 9-10. Change every year.

John.

[romski]

The specifications as stated for the solar meter are for best performance, in practice its sensitivety seems to extend somewhat further past 330 nano metres. You can check this on the solar meters site.

http://www.solarmeter.com/model62.html

The graph below shows the response curves for both the 6.2 and the 6.5 meters.

The graph also shows (black circles) the D3 response spectrum.

The green line shows the a sunlight response at midday in July.

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj28/romski50/image002.gif


I have crudely superimposed the output spectrum from a T5 lamp. John will correct me if I have messed up.

You can see that the pink bit extended for the D3 lamp is a smallish proportion of the total area within the 6.2 sensitivety (blue line)and the lamp irradiation shown by my squigly black line..

A reading on a 6.2 would indicate the value for the total irradiation that has a majority of irradiated power within the longer wavelengths.

Thats all I am saying. The reading is not an indication of just the D3 component. The two do co-relate but the co-relation will vary from lamp to lamp (because the area under the curve will be different) In daylight co-relation will also vary depending on how much atmosphere the rays have to penetrate;- due time of day and season.

You can also see that in a daylight reading the D3 component is only about a third of the total irradiation which is green and is mostly UVa.

What we are after is a balanced lamp solution and this gets us another step closer. We really dont want a UVb generator we want a lamp that follows the sunlight curve.

It is not obvious but checking the T5 output against any other lamp is the really interesting thing. Other lamps seem much more peaky and dont have such well extended spectrum into the longer wavelengths.

Of course it dont match up to the big bright thing and needs to be supplemented at the red hot end. It is pretty good though.

I nearly did not respond as this is tricky and easy to mess up or use ambiguous language.

If I have confused Im sorry.

Rom

[Ozric Jonathan]

Thanks for that Rom - I need a little more time to study it but I do really appreciate you taking the time to do that.

Also I like your text size in this post!

I think we are agreed that the T5 lamp does produce useful uvb as far as a tortoise is concerned but it does not in any way equate to the sun.

[Ozric Jonathan]

Quick update: the tubes have been on for 12 hours a day every day for a couple of months and the output appears to be steady.

No problems of any kind and I'm really glad that I got these tubes in.

For a tube these are high output lights which in my set-up means I can mount them higher up and cover a wider area.

With other lamps off and the reflectors in place it's possible to see exactly what area is covered by the tube. This allows maximum use to be made of the light produced.

[Alan1]

Quick update: the tubes have been on for 12 hours a day every day for a couple of months and the output appears to be steady.

No problems of any kind and I'm really glad that I got these tubes in.

For a tube these are high output lights which in my set-up means I can mount them higher up and cover a wider area.

With other lamps off and the reflectors in place it's possible to see exactly what area is covered by the tube. This allows maximum use to be made of the light produced.

I might get these soon..or eventually anyway but are you measuring at the centre of the tube for those readings and if so what were the readings further away from the centre? I don't want to get a tube that is too short

[NATURALIS]

Been on the look out for these tubes and starter but unable to buy them near me , all the shops say there to expensive to stock .
TBH i'm not really sure which starter i would need anyway .

[Alan1]

they have them a surrey pets http://www.surreypetsupplies.co.uk/arcadia-t5-reptile-lighting/ but will you be in the delivery range? I think Corra got something from them so you should be. I don't know what the difference is between two controlles of the same wattage band :? for instance there are 2 at 54w

[NATURALIS]

they have them a surrey pets http://www.surreypetsupplies.co.uk/arcadia-t5-reptile-lighting/ but will you be in the delivery range? I think Corra got something from them so you should be. I don't know what the difference is between two controlles of the same wattage band :? for instance there are 2 at 54w
Thanks Allan , the bit that has confused me is the controller , there seems to be two , one for fish is this the same for reptiles .

[EJ]

I think John would be the guy to ask. I'm sure others have wondered the same thing.

Thanks Allan , the bit that has confused me is the controller , there seems to be two , one for fish is this the same for reptiles .

[NATURALIS]

I think John would be the guy to ask. I'm sure others have wondered the same thing.
I don't think it's made very clear

[Alan1]

they are all for fish and/or reptiles as far as I'm aware. I remember John telling someone that if you have the twin controller you can use it with one bulb in but for fish it has to have 2 bulbs in, I assume because of moisture getting in.

I have noticed that there appears to be an error on their site, when you click on the link for 54w twin http://www.surreypetsupplies.co.uk/arcadia-electronic-t5-twin-controller-54w-ace254.html it throws up the wrong thing or at least it doesn't make clear whether it's the 54w or the 24-39w that they are offering there on that link

[Arcadiajohn]

Hi everyone,

The controllers are really very simple when you know how :)

There are only 4 models.

ACE1U5 is a single 24-39w electronic high output T5 controller, meaning it runs one lamp of either 24 watts or 39watts

ACE2U5 is a twin 24-39w unit, able to run two 24w or 39w lamps, one of each or just one lamp

ACE154 is a single 54w controller, able to run one 54w lamp

ACE254 is the twin 54w controller able to run either one or two 54w high output T5 lamps.

These award winning and revolutionary new lamps are available all over the country. In stores and online. All of the usual suppliers have them, I.e 888 reptiles, livefoods by post, Charterhouse aquatics, rocket reptiles, surrey pet supplies, warehouse aquatics, Northampton reptiles and so on.

Please let me know if you continue to struggle. I. Sure that strictly exotics have them, they are up your way.

John

[Alan1]

John, I think it's a website error. the link to this one Arcadia Electronic T5 Twin Controller 54W (ACE254) actually takes you to this one Arcadia Electronic T5 Controller 24-39W (ACE1U5)

I have emailed them about it, I never checked the others, they might be wrong as well

[NATURALIS]

Hi everyone,

The controllers are really very simple when you know how :)

There are only 4 models.

ACE1U5 is a single 24-39w electronic high output T5 controller, meaning it runs one lamp of either 24 watts or 39watts

ACE2U5 is a twin 24-39w unit, able to run two 24w or 39w lamps, one of each or just one lamp

ACE154 is a single 54w controller, able to run one 54w lamp

ACE254 is the twin 54w controller able to run either one or two 54w high output T5 lamps.

These award winning and revolutionary new lamps are available all over the country. In stores and online. All of the usual suppliers have them, I.e 888 reptiles, livefoods by post, Charterhouse aquatics, rocket reptiles, surrey pet supplies, warehouse aquatics, Northampton reptiles and so on.

Please let me know if you continue to struggle. I. Sure that strictly exotics have them, they are up your way.

Johnso whats the difference between 24-39 watt and 54 watt, why the difference ??? .
Strictly exotic's was one i tried who said there to expensive.

[Alan1]

the 54w takes a 54w bulb (46inch) and the 24-39w takes a 24w or 39w bulb (22inch and 34inch)

[NATURALIS]

the 54w takes a 54w bulb (46inch) and the 24-39w takes a 24w or 39w bulb (22inch and 34inch)
Thanks Allan , i've got it now.

[Alan1]

I don't actually know why, if a 39w controller can take a 24w bulb, why can't a 54w controller take a 39w bulb :? .. or can it? surely not otherwise there would only be a need for a 54w controller and nowt else

[EJ]

Normally the ballast it matched to a specific wattage. This is the same with flourscent lamps... which this is kind of. I believe that the Arcadia lamps have an electronic ballast which I'm pretty sure has a very specific output. It all has to do with the efficient use of power in to power out... or something like that.



I don't actually know why, if a 39w controller can take a 24w bulb, why can't a 54w controller take a 39w bulb :? .. or can it? surely not otherwise there would only be a need for a 54w controller and nowt else

[Ozric Jonathan]

I tried to buy the wrong controller and someone from SurreyPets phoned to say so.

The controllers were switched over and duly sent. So SurreyPets at least have noticed that it is easy to make a mistake and they are on the lookout for wrong orders.

Two really long tubes+ twin controller cost a total of about £100. I do not agree with the shops Chris has been talking to. They have not realised yet that the uvb tubes they are selling are feeble compared to these and cost about the same.

In answer to Alan, the uvb output is the same along the tube.

In my opinion these tubes are worth considering. I can't prove this but I feel sure they are more reliable than combined heat and uvb lamps. We are told that every combined heat and uvb lamp is 'unique'. But I'd rather have something that is always the same and gradually wears out in a predictable fashion.

[EJ]

I've had combined tubes last from one day to 7 years. I don't think they are worth the cost.



I tried to buy the wrong controller and someone from SurreyPets phoned to say so.

The controllers were switched over and duly sent. So SurreyPets at least have noticed that it is easy to make a mistake and they are on the lookout for wrong orders.

Two really long tubes+ twin controller cost a total of about £100. I do not agree with the shops Chris has been talking to. They have not realised yet that the uvb tubes they are selling are feeble compared to these and cost about the same.

In answer to Alan, the uvb output is the same along the tube.

In my opinion these tubes are worth considering. I can't prove this but I feel sure they are more reliable than combined heat and uvb lamps. We are told that every combined heat and uvb lamp is 'unique'. But I'd rather have something that is always the same and gradually wears out in a predictable fashion.

[ClareandCo]

I've had combined tubes last from one day to 7 years. I don't think they are worth the cost.

On that law of averages one day or 2,500 days + then they must be working out extremely cheap!

[Alan1]

In answer to Alan, the uvb output is the same along the tube

I like the sound of that. the old style tubes had the UV peak in the centre and tapered to nowt at either end I believe

[NATURALIS]

just wondering if anyone has any data on these new tubes regarding the uv levels

[romski]

Yes absolutely. Frances Baines does independent evaluation of the tubes.

I have seen the results for the T5 myself and they are significantly better than others. She uses a calibrated set of Solar meters both 6.2 and 6.5 and has also performed some age testing. In her "lab" (she will laugh at this as its her drawing room) she has one wall shelved and it seems to be full of lamps previously tested.

She will be talking on this very subject on Sunday at the Turtle breeders meet.

Im sorry its so far for you mate, but you will be missing a treat. I understand there will be a video or a write up of the proceding so it may be worth contacting the organisers for a copy.

Cheers
Rom

Oh as a PS The values used by Arcadia on their literature is derived from Frances' testing.
For my own part I have moved to using the T5 tubes and Tungsten lamps (B&Q) for heat. Its the cheapest and most reliable way forward.

[EJ]

Not quite... One lasted the 7 years. 6 others in that batch lasted 2 - 4 years. The remaining 15 or 20 lasted 1 to 15 days. That is when I gave up on them.

I meant to say combined bulbs and not tubes.

On that law of averages one day or 2,500 days + then they must be working out extremely cheap!

[Ozric Jonathan]

just wondering if anyone has any data on these new tubes regarding the uv levels


Here are a few rough readings of uvb from the Ardacia 34" 39 watt T5 tube D3+ reptile strip light with the reflectors in place.

at 10 cm........430 uWcm2

at 20 cm.......220 uWcm2

at 30 cm.......150 uWcm2

at 40 cm....... 100 uWcm2

at 50 cm....... 70 uWcm2

[NATURALIS]

Here are a few rough readings of uvb from the Ardacia 34" 39 watt T5 tube D3+ reptile strip light with the reflectors in place.

at 10 cm........430 uWcm2

at 20 cm.......220 uWcm2

at 30 cm.......150 uWcm2

at 40 cm....... 100 uWcm2

at 50 cm....... 70 uWcm2
thanks jonathan

[Paige Lewis]

Here are a few rough readings of uvb from the Ardacia 34" 39 watt T5 tube D3+ reptile strip light with the reflectors in place.

at 10 cm........430 uWcm2

at 20 cm.......220 uWcm2

at 30 cm.......150 uWcm2

at 40 cm....... 100 uWcm2

at 50 cm....... 70 uWcm2

I am using this same strip light and was wondering what is the ideal amount of uvb, i believe there is a minimum of 20cm distance from the tortoise with this light? So at the distance of 20cm is 220 uWcm2 sufficient levels of uvb?

[Alan1]

I am using this same strip light and was wondering what is the ideal amount of uvb, i believe there is a minimum of 20cm distance from the tortoise with this light? So at the distance of 20cm is 220 uWcm2 sufficient levels of uvb?

I don't have the bulb but was told once by Frances Baines that you should be looking for around 100uW/cm2 with the other type of bulb (heat+UVB)

[Alan1]

I contacted SP and they have now sorted the mistake they said though I haven't actually checked it or if there are others

[romski]

I have a befuddled memory but somewhere in the grey recesses I recall Highfield measuring about 220 in Spain when the animals were out and about. 220 would be good.

Weve been here before on this discussion and we compared to Alans reading up North.

Rom

[Ozric Jonathan]

I think 200 uw/cm2 is high if the tortoise will be exposed to it for long periods of time.

[NATURALIS]

I think 200 uw/cm2 is high if the tortoise will be exposed to it for long periods of time.
I agree with this, i'm torn between the new t5's and the set up i use now , i have one megaray or acadia combined and one normal heat lamp 3 ft apart to give them the option if they dont need uv and a 4ft sad tube . I think io will stick with the set up i'm using now.

[Ozric Jonathan]

Mounting the tubes at 40cm gives a much wider spread and the uv is about 100 uw/cm2 which is lot more than many keepers are providing with combined lamps.

In my set-up I've got a combined heat and uv lamp as well and the uvb under it is higher for basking. But this enclosure is quite a big area and the uv zones do not overlap.

[Paige Lewis]

Right i have mounted mine up at roughly 40cm now, seems so high but that is just because i had it at the minimum distance before. I just wanted to make sure it will give my tort adequate uv exposure as his shell just is not hardening up after a year of illness (this is being addressed, blood work is being done in 2 weeks to check calcium levels in the blood), he has been reluctant to come out of his hide and i am wondering whether it could have been that the bulb was just far to close as it covers the entire length of his enclosure.

[Ozric Jonathan]

Hi Paige - it could be right that the light was very intense at that height of 20cm.

My belief is that hermanns do bask at 200 uw for limited periods but in nature the heat that goes along with it means that they don't do it for long.

If you are concerned if it is enough, then you might want to try a halfway at say 30cm.

But the way I see it, if Jimmy was out an about quite a lot and getting 100uw or more for quite long periods then the accumulated uvb would be plenty.

Best wishes with the wee one - it's hard going when they are having health problems.

[EJ]

I'm curious as to how anyone knows how much UVB is needed and how this need was determined.

I'm guessing what an animal experiences is not what it needs.

[Arcadiajohn]

Really good point!

What we do is very simple.

Check the uv index of the country of origin. Then study the wild behaviour of the animal, elevation above sea level ect. You can also use the ferguson scale as a reference. Then I put this into perspective with the index in the UK in summer. You then cross this with the limitations of technology.

That's how we work it out.

So for a hermans a graduation from hot to cool end, light to shade. 40-60uw/cm2 up to 200+uw/ cm2 at the centre of the basking zone.

This is 100% safe and useful if the lamps are fitted above the animal and it does have the ability to self regulate between these zones.

John



I'm curious as to how anyone knows how much UVB is needed and how this need was determined.

I'm guessing what an animal experiences is not what it needs.

[Ozric Jonathan]

Thats fair enough Ed and I cannot really answer that except to say that to some extent we are taking our cues from what appears to happen in nature. As I understand it, hermanns experience 200 uw but only for short periods because of the attendant heat. They are thought to spend quite a bit of time in semi-shade which is about 100 uw.

And as John has pointed out the tortoise should have some options and always the ability to get away from heat and light sources.

It does seem likely that this would result in the animals' needs being met.

[EJ]

Is seasonal variances taken into account? This would include changes from second to second to climatic change over decades.

Again... what they experience is not what they need.

I just find it interesting that a fixed number can be thrown out with confidence when there are so many unknown variables.

John threw out mention of a Ferguson scale which I can only assume is the product of Gary Ferguson. Most if not all of his research is on chameleons but I'll accept that it can be applied to most basking type reptiles. If there is anything pertaining to the question I'm getting at Dr. Ferguson has probably hit on it but I'll just wait for someone else to muddle through his writings to find it.

My point is how much UVB is required for good calcium metabolism. The use of a number in uw is kind of useless to me unless there is a base number to reference. That is... what is the minimum amount of UVB required for decent calcium metabolism. What follows next... what is too much UVB?

Thats fair enough Ed and I cannot really answer that except to say that to some extent we are taking our cues from what appears to happen in nature. As I understand it, hermanns experience 200 uw but only for short periods because of the attendant heat. They are thought to spend quite a bit of time in semi-shade which is about 100 uw.

And as John has pointed out the tortoise should have some options and always the ability to get away from heat and light sources.

It does seem likely that this would result in the animals' needs being met.

[Alan1]

That is... what is the minimum amount of UVB required for decent calcium metabolism. What follows next... what is too much UVB?

if you have an enclosure ranging from nil UVB to as much UVB as the sun at it's peak, wouldn't the tortoises decide on what they require themselves?

[Arcadiajohn]

Yes this is exactly the point!! It is all about self regulation as I always point out.

Let's see what Frances says today at the conference.

But I stand by our methods as being the most scientific to date. We do also advise the use of timers so that a break in the day can be given. I do this with my snakes that are actually kept under high strength UV. I use timers to recreate cloud cover.

This is how I worked it out. Ornate flying snake. Comes from an index of 5-7 in the high elevations of Asia. Plenty of cloud and rain most days. Lives high in the indo forests. Tall viv = extra power needed at source. So I use a 7% compact to illuminate a third of the enclosure. Then I have four breaks in the day via the timer. The same theory applies to all captive reptiles. These are very difficult to even keep alive. I have had mine 4 years now.

Again, now that we are starting to find out more and more about reptiles and thier biology and are also educated about the limitations of what is actually very old tech we must do all we can to differentiate between keeping an animal alive and causing it to thrive.

Match the wild index, you cannot go wrong if the system is fitted properly. ABOVE THE ANIMAL.

That's our position. Animals first.

John.


if you have an enclosure ranging from nil UVB to as much UVB as the sun at it's peak, wouldn't the tortoises decide on what they require themselves?

[NATURALIS]

if you have an enclosure ranging from nil UVB to as much UVB as the sun at it's peak, wouldn't the tortoises decide on what they require themselves?
Your so right Allan

[wigwamman]

how about suspending the t5 at a slight angle instead of being level,thus creating a stronger uvb gradient !

[EJ]

My point... once again... is the numbers being thrown around. They are meaningless without a base to compare from... as I stated earlier. That's for starters.

As far as I know tortoises bask for heat. The UVB they obtain from the sun is incidental. I'm pretty sure the tortoise is not basking for the UVB benefit. This point is easy enough to prove.

This brings me back to what is 'too little' or 'too much' UVB.

if you have an enclosure ranging from nil UVB to as much UVB as the sun at it's peak, wouldn't the tortoises decide on what they require themselves?

[Ozric Jonathan]

If we don't know how much uvb the tortoise really needs then it makes sense to me to be providing somehting a bit like what seems to happen in nature but with options so the tortoise can make the best of the available conditions.

My tortoises seem to bask for heat as Ed says, and in nature this would be combined with uvb exposure naturally. In captivity it seems right to e trying to provide something a bit similar.

What I'm very aware of these days is that the meditteranean species in nature spend large parts of the day in the summer hiding from the heat and consequently not getting uvb. They are more likely to be basking in the morning or late afternoon when the uvb is significant but not up at 200 uw.

[EJ]

Providing a gradient doesn't really make sense because I don't think the tortoise is selecting UVB amount for its need or by instinct.

I'm not saying UVB is not beneficial. I just wonder how much UVB is needed and how does anyone know this.

There are also substitutes of UVB.

If we don't know how much uvb the tortoise really needs then it makes sense to me to be providing somehting a bit like what seems to happen in nature but with options so the tortoise can make the best of the available conditions.

My tortoises seem to bask for heat as Ed says, and in nature this would be combined with uvb exposure naturally. In captivity it seems right to e trying to provide something a bit similar.

What I'm very aware of these days is that the meditteranean species in nature spend large parts of the day in the summer hiding from the heat and consequently not getting uvb. They are more likely to be basking in the morning or late afternoon when the uvb is significant but not up at 200 uw.

[Alan1]

I don't think the tortoise is selecting UVB amount for its need or by instinct

I actually think that they do, or at least mine does. I posted a thread recently about it, a couple of months back maybe. My tort was staying out of the UV and hiding away until I changed the bulb for a non UVB bulb and it returned to the basking spot once again.

As to what they actually require, that is something I wouldn't know but they seem to know themselves

[EJ]

How do you know it was the UVB and not another part of the sprectrum of light provided that it was shying away from?

Lets say that your tortoise can sense UVB... does that mean yours was getting too much UVB or that it did not want any UVB?

I actually think that they do, or at least mine does. I posted a thread recently about it, a couple of months back maybe. My tort was staying out of the UV and hiding away until I changed the bulb for a non UVB bulb and it returned to the basking spot once again.

As to what they actually require, that is something I wouldn't know but they seem to know themselves

[Alan1]

yes, one of those probably :lol:

[Geomyda]

Providing a gradient doesn't really make sense because I don't think the tortoise is selecting UVB amount for its need or by instinct.

I'm not saying UVB is not beneficial. I just wonder how much UVB is needed and how does anyone know this.

There are also substitutes of UVB.
Ed, you should have attended the "Chelonia 2002" Turtle breeders conference at the weekend. Francis Baines gave an amazing presentation and a practical exhibit of environmental lighting. It was, (excuse the pun) truly illuminating and dealt in a cogent and very scientific manner with issues discussed in this thread.
She was also able to launch her new initiative to obtain practical input from Zoo's and hobby keepers. This was one of the highlights of the weekend and was a treat for the delegates whom I am very sure learnt a great deal more about this often vexed question!

[EJ]

Are they going to publish the proceedings?

Ed, you should have attended the "Chelonia 2002" Turtle breeders conference at the weekend. Francis Baines gave an amazing presentation and a practical exhibit of environmental lighting. It was, (excuse the pun) truly illuminating and dealt in a cogent and very scientific manner with issues discussed in this thread.
She was also able to launch her new initiative to obtain practical input from Zoo's and hobby keepers. This was one of the highlights of the weekend and was a treat for the delegates whom I am very sure learnt a great deal more about this often vexed question!

[Geomyda]

Are they going to publish the proceedings?
I certainly hope so, as I am sure that many of the delegates will confirm,there was a lot of very valuable content over the two day event.;)