Is this enough nutrient's

[16 shells]

This is my little Leopard grazing as he does, safe? plant's and flower's on offer out of shot, also brought in weed's, chopped hay fed. Apart from all the other unknown protein like insect's slug's ect that i don't see him devour except for a slug and a worm once. Plus supplement's about twice a week and water.
If i was to take away the twice a week pellet's fed for about nearly three years now and maybe recently Pre Alpin occasionly. Would the nutrition be met.

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb283/16shells4006/NewPics017.jpg (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0);)

There is no such independent authority for reptile nutrition..
As a result, the nutritional requirements of reptiles for almost all groups of nutrients is unknown.
Opinion's welcome :grin:.

[Watermelon]

I'm guessing ..... nope. If a tort were to get 100% nutrients and all the little micro nutrients etc a day through plants then wouldnt they be over eating? Thats what it is for humans anyway.

[Kirkie]

Quite possibly.

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr148/davekirk72/SuperStock_1566-384907.jpg

People seem to have utterly forgotton what these animals are capable of. :(

[Neddy]

We don't give them enough credit for what they are capable of, bearing in mind they were here way before us!! I believe they have been walking earth for at least 200 million years :shock: Humans about 200,000 years ............:roll:

It's a bit like teaching your granny to suck eggs lol xxxx

[terrypin]

this is one of my adult leopards,she has had no supplementary feeding since probably the end of april.she has survived by grazing in her enclosure.please click on the picture.this area is not particularly well planted mostly natural graze including grass, trefoil, some clover and thistle.there is a little sowthistle,dandelion,plantain and mallow, which they dont seem to seek out in particular.they actually seem more interested in the grass when it has been cut really short.
terry
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y130/terrypin/th_leopardcow.jpg (http://s4.photobucket.com/albums/y130/terrypin/?action=view&current=leopardcow.mp4)

[16 shells]

Quite possibly.

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr148/davekirk72/SuperStock_1566-384907.jpg

People seem to have utterly forgotton what these animals are capable of. :(
True there very adaptable, but if you try and replicate the best you can on the feeding side, don't some breed's gourge food in good time's and barely get by in drought. This would mean supplying say spring, food glut's then almost withhold later in the year to try and replicate. Instead they (we think) adapt to our sometimes preached little and often feeding method's, mainly in tables and pen's. This is not natural feeding or is it.

[16 shells]

this is one of my adult leopards,she has had no supplementary feeding since probably the end of april.she has survived by grazing in her enclosure.please click on the picture.this area is not particularly well planted mostly natural graze including grass, trefoil, some clover and thistle.there is a little sowthistle,dandelion,plantain and mallow, which they dont seem to seek out in particular.they actually seem more interested in the grass when it has been cut really short.
terry
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y130/terrypin/th_leopardcow.jpg (http://s4.photobucket.com/albums/y130/terrypin/?action=view&current=leopardcow.mp4)
Very nice love watching them graze, they do seem to go for short cropped leaving the long stuff :-D. My two can graze through a fair amount one day then eat not as vigourous the next. Could it be balancing out or fermenting in the gut.

[Helen M]

I don't think tortoises would gorge unless their body needed them to. I keep Russians who are supposed to be ravenously greedy in the wild but to me they eat their fill and leave the rest. They probably pig out in the wild because they have to in order to survive hibernation and be able to breed in the short time available. My tortoises don't and I think they're feeding habits have adjusted for this.

I think your tortoise will get what it needs from a well planted enclosure. You could just leave cuttlefish bones lying around if your concerned about calcium.

Helen xx

[gazinbrid]

looking good paul:-)

[Pussygalore]

I'd assume that if like sully's they are grazers with grass being the main diet then they'd need, like other grazers, to eat most of the waking hours simply to get enough from a grass diet. I would also think it would be the other 'extra' foods given that would be a prob if any not the constant grazing on a lawn.

[Kirkie]

I think your tortoise will get what it needs from a well planted enclosure. You could just leave cuttlefish bones lying around if your concerned about calcium.


Pauls in Yorkshire by the look of his avatar. I wouldn't be too worried about the calcium levels and availability in the plants in that picture. :)
Same for Kent, Sussex and a few others.

[Alan1]

it always amazes me how cows and other large animals that graze survive on just grass mostly. I doubt if tortoises actually need much nutrition at all to get by

[16 shells]

I think it's the amount of grasses/hay taken in, there is very small amount's of nutrition in grass then it is fermented, where more is taken out given a result. In some area's where the Leopard Tort lives there will be a shorter flush of growth sometimes two a year. Some times not that at all and it can be gone quick as other animal's and scorch take hold. See it time again on Animal tv, they gorge and have a beano of good stuff. Some of the plant's could be vital for a yearly wellbeing of the animal, some could have a level toxicity as this has been witnessed.
We take them on or away :-) and offer them what is set down for our eviroment and they sometimes adapt quite well. Babbleon, what we do and offer in form of nutrient's, is a gamble that we get it right.
I think a very few very old tortoises alive in this country is not evidence that our feeding offering habit's is the right way.

[Alan1]

no, they have just been lucky I reckon

[Helen M]

I guess the diet of the leopard tortoises explains why they reach such a size. They need a longer gut and a greater quantity of food to keep them going on just a grass based diet.

Helen xx

[Kirkie]

Have a look at this:

http://www.cebc.cnrs.fr/publipdf/2006/EJAE64.pdf

A study of T Graeca Graeca feeding in an agriculturally overgrazed area. 8 main plant species consumed, higher protein legimues sought out.

[EJ]

I haven't seen temperature mentioned.

I hope most have read that paper I offered. That is current thinking in reptile nutrition and answers many of the questions that have come up lately.

While many of these tortoises appear to be eating single items... get down on your hands and knees and see what is actually growing even on a well manecured lawn... then there is the stuff outside of the lawn which does include insects and the like. With a well planted yard I'm sure most tortoises would do quite well for a single individual or species.

[EJ]

In the wild they do consume way more than just grasses. Even then... the number of species of grasses have to be considered... the stage of development of the plants...


I guess the diet of the leopard tortoises explains why they reach such a size. They need a longer gut and a greater quantity of food to keep them going on just a grass based diet.

Helen xx

[terrypin]

i believe tortoises that exist on a mainly grasses diet need to attain greater basking temperatures to help digest this fibrous food stuff.i have taken readings of leopards on a hot day still basking when med tortoises have sought the shade and their temperature readings are different.they bask until they attain the optimum temperature for their species/size then move into the shade so as not to overheat.be aware i thnk size is important smaller tortoises are in greater danger from high temperatures including the very real risks of dehydration and even death from overheating.perhaps this is why we often find leopards are more inclined to graze outdoors when they can control their own basking temperatures and arent limited to what we provide indoors.
terry

[EJ]

There are a few... actually more than a few but they tend to shy away from the tortoise community for some reason. Susan Donoghue was a reptile keeper before she was a vet and devotes most of her time on reptile nutrition.

The pelleted diet I have faith in is supervised by a phd in animal nutrition.

The desert tortoise studies using a formulated diet is supervised by phds in animal nutrition.

In the last 10 years there has been an explosion of studies in tortoise nutrition... because of its commercial value.

To clarify... while it might be unknown(or every will be) it is way more understood today than it was 10 years ago.

This is my little Leopard grazing as he does, safe? plant's and flower's on offer out of shot, also brought in weed's, chopped hay fed. Apart from all the other unknown protein like insect's slug's ect that i don't see him devour except for a slug and a worm once. Plus supplement's about twice a week and water.
If i was to take away the twice a week pellet's fed for about nearly three years now and maybe recently Pre Alpin occasionly. Would the nutrition be met.

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb283/16shells4006/NewPics017.jpg (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0);)

There is no such independent authority for reptile nutrition..
As a result, the nutritional requirements of reptiles for almost all groups of nutrients is unknown.
Opinion's welcome :grin:.

[terrypin]

it always amazes me how cows and other large animals that graze survive on just grass mostly. I doubt if tortoises actually need much nutrition at all to get by

i think with any animal that grazes its down to their ability to extract the nutrients.

[EJ]

Totally different digestive system... tortoises digestive systems are most closely related to horses an bunnies. Ruminants have multicamber stomachs/digestive systems.

i think with any animal that grazes its down to their ability to extract the nutrients.

[EJ]

See... we agree on something...

i think with any animal that grazes its down to their ability to extract the nutrients.

[terrypin]

makes a change Ed

cows are ruminants. Most ruminants, including the cow, have four stomachs, although camels and some other ruminants have three. The first stomach chamber is called the rumen. This is the chamber in which large amounts of food are stored and softened.
After the food is processed and softened in the rumen, it is regurgitated. This substance is called the cud and is chewed again. The chewed cud goes directly to the other chambers of the stomach. In the cow, these chambers are, in order, the reticulum, omasum, and abomasum. Once the cud arrives in these chambers, additional digestion occurs.
terry

[terrypin]

if you look there is more.

Surprisingly the turtle’s intestinal tract lacks a fermentation chamber (like the rumen of mammalian herbivores) that would aid in the breakdown of plant cellulose. In most turtles, once the food has entered the intestinal tract it takes a long time for it to pass through the intestines. In some cases (tortoises) it may take up to four weeks for digested material to leave the body. This lengthy passage ensures the turtle an optimum nutritional benefit from their food. Some experts believe that up to 30% of the ingested cellulose is broken down in the intestine. This digestion is aided by commensal bacteria and other micro-organisms. Any excess energy is converted to and stored as fat. Unlike mammals who have fat deposits just beneath the skin, turtles store theirs within the abdomen in fat bodies. This ensures that the fat deposits will not have any insulating properties (as in mammals), and therefore will not interfere with thermoregulation. These fat stores supply the turtle with the necessary energy for hibernation. The energy requirements of these reptiles is surprisingly low. For example studies have shown that a Red-footed tortoise (4.3 kg) needs only 185 grams of banana to meet the energy requirements for a four week period. Once the turtle’s low energy expenditure has been realized, it is no surprise that these incredible creatures have been able to exist on earth for so long. The digestive system of the turtle terminates at the cloaca. This structure is similar to the rectum of mammalian tracts, and voids wastes from the digestive tract and kidneys via the anus.
Source(s):

http://www.science.mcmaster.ca/Biology/H… (http://www.science.mcmaster.ca/Biology/Harbour/WILDLIF/TURTLES/ADAPT/DIGEST/DIGEST.HTM)

[EJ]

You are 100% correct.

I think I said that Tortoises have a more closely related digestive system to bunnies an horses. No change on my part.

Bunnies have a habit of running the feceas through a second time... sound familiar?

makes a change Ed

cows are ruminants. Most ruminants, including the cow, have four stomachs, although camels and some other ruminants have three. The first stomach chamber is called the rumen. This is the chamber in which large amounts of food are stored and softened.
After the food is processed and softened in the rumen, it is regurgitated. This substance is called the cud and is chewed again. The chewed cud goes directly to the other chambers of the stomach. In the cow, these chambers are, in order, the reticulum, omasum, and abomasum. Once the cud arrives in these chambers, additional digestion occurs.
terry

[NATURALIS]

if you look there is more.

Surprisingly the turtle’s intestinal tract lacks a fermentation chamber (like the rumen of mammalian herbivores) that would aid in the breakdown of plant cellulose. In most turtles, once the food has entered the intestinal tract it takes a long time for it to pass through the intestines. In some cases (tortoises) it may take up to four weeks for digested material to leave the body. This lengthy passage ensures the turtle an optimum nutritional benefit from their food. Some experts believe that up to 30% of the ingested cellulose is broken down in the intestine. This digestion is aided by commensal bacteria and other micro-organisms. Any excess energy is converted to and stored as fat. Unlike mammals who have fat deposits just beneath the skin, turtles store theirs within the abdomen in fat bodies. This ensures that the fat deposits will not have any insulating properties (as in mammals), and therefore will not interfere with thermoregulation. These fat stores supply the turtle with the necessary energy for hibernation. The energy requirements of these reptiles is surprisingly low. For example studies have shown that a Red-footed tortoise (4.3 kg) needs only 185 grams of banana to meet the energy requirements for a four week period. Once the turtle’s low energy expenditure has been realized, it is no surprise that these incredible creatures have been able to exist on earth for so long. The digestive system of the turtle terminates at the cloaca. This structure is similar to the rectum of mammalian tracts, and voids wastes from the digestive tract and kidneys via the anus.
Source(s):

http://www.science.mcmaster.ca/Biology/H… (http://www.science.mcmaster.ca/Biology/Harbour/WILDLIF/TURTLES/ADAPT/DIGEST/DIGEST.HTM)you got it there terry

[Kirkie]

Nice work Terry. :) 185g of bananas is about 156 calories. (I eat a lot of bananas).

[16 shells]

Have a look at this:

http://www.cebc.cnrs.fr/publipdf/2006/EJAE64.pdf

A study of T Graeca Graeca feeding in an agriculturally overgrazed area. 8 main plant species consumed, higher protein legimues sought out.
Thank's for the link Kirkie :smile:.

[Alan1]

makes a change Ed

cows are ruminants. Most ruminants, including the cow, have four stomachs, although camels and some other ruminants have three. The first stomach chamber is called the rumen. This is the chamber in which large amounts of food are stored and softened.
After the food is processed and softened in the rumen, it is regurgitated. This substance is called the cud and is chewed again. The chewed cud goes directly to the other chambers of the stomach. In the cow, these chambers are, in order, the reticulum, omasum, and abomasum. Once the cud arrives in these chambers, additional digestion occurs.
terry

I knew cows had 4 stomachs (like me :lol:) what do you make of the sloth? I find it amazing they can starve to death on a full stomach, have a look at this http://www.shelledwarriors.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=45442