help with my hermann

[dymmy]

Hi, I need some advice on what temp to keep my tortoise table at and a few other pointers. I understand he needs a cool end, a hide and a basking area. However his table is 60cm x 60cm is this too small for a 2 year old, 170g 10cm hermann. Also he has a 75w Exo Terra Sun Glo UV Basking Bulb. With a reptiglow 13w (5 UVB) for basking on his welsh slate tile. A habba hut which he isnt too kean on. A water dish he ignores (i have never seen him drink) although I bath him twice weekly and have seen him pass the 'toothpaste' looking fluids. He gets vitamins (reptavite) twice a week and as varied a diet as I can find with limited knowledge. I'm growing some weeds and flowers in pots c/o shelledwarriorshop ;) The problem is I do not have any central heating in my apartement, its currently around 20 degrees thanks to the neighbour having some but it wont be warm for much longer. I need to sort out his thermo regulation ASAP in order to prevent him from hibernating as I have decided he is only 2 and been with us for 6 weeks now, is this a bad decision ? Are the infrared bulbs the best way to keep his table warm as i understand heat matts are incorrect due to heat from above being the correct method. I have covered the lot in one post and I hope I am being a good parent but definately need some advice. thx

[Watermelon]

temp wise at warm end should be about 32C, mine occasionaly goes up to 36C.
cool end should be lower 20's. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

The toothpaste looking fluids are normal, dont worry.

I'm not sure about the lights if they have sufficient UVB, but the first light I bought an exo terra 13w 5 UVB light emitted hardly any UVB at all. So i bought a 100w megaray. If you google Yahoo groups UVB meter owners there should be a report up on there or on the UK UVB Guide about your light and how much UVB it gives off....

[Alan1]

2ft x 2ft is a bit small really, it's best to have it as big as you can.

if using the basking bulb + UVB bulb method it's best to have a 10.0 or 12.0 UVB bulb (for redfoots, 5.0 is fine)

As said above 32c is about the minimum basking temp and 32-35c being in about what you want but if it goes higher then they just move away from the bulb a bit, that's where having a bigger table benefits, they need to escape the heat if they want. About 20c at cool end is fine but again, if it's cooler than that then they simply come closer to the heat. A slate isn't great for a basking spot as it can become too hot to sit on.

Heat mats can be used so long as they are used properly, opinion is divided on them but in the wild they get heat from below also as the ground is warm. Look up some threads on heat mats in the search facility.

They don't always drink when you are looking so water must always be available. A bath once a day will help prevent dehydration and the formation of bladder stones and it also encourages them to drink which in turn may help prevent pyramiding of the shell (Manuel Wegehaupt theory) and you should give reptivite or Nutrobal daily since your UVB bulb is only 5.0, most people give it daily or every second day in any case.

You need to provide extra calcium in the form of limestone flour or calci dust and also a cuttlefish bone which provides calcium and helps keep the beak in trim even though they only eat it now and again

[dymmy]

thx, I forgot to mention he does have a cuttlefish bone and loves to munch it on occasion. I have decided to build a bigger box, and provide enough topsoil to dig down into. Also a thermostatically controlled heat mat of 28w under said topsoil. His old box will be available to him also once the weeds and flowers have grown. Also his pool area will improve and a 100w megaray is on order. The tiles I will use to feed him on and slightly slope them for extra nail trimming. So far so good ?

[Watermelon]

Very good :D Dont forget to make little hills in your tortoise table so it makes em exercise a bit.

[dymmy]

oh my goodness, I have read far too much information on the subject of basking lights. I almost ordered the megaray then got scared off due to reliability, then the Hagen but it seems it doesnt produce enough UVB for very long. Next was Arcadia and that too has issues I am totally confused, any ideas however I did order some limestone powder :)

[NATURALIS]

i use arcadia d3 uvb/heat bulb's at the moment and have to say i'm pleased with them.

[EJ]

The white stuff... urates... are usually a sign of dehydration or feeding plants high in oxalic acid.

The tortoise does not need a cool end but more of a temperature range. 75 to 90F is a good temperature range for a hermanns. It should have a choice.

On the water dish... place it against a wall or in the corner so the tortoise is sure to find it.

In your climate you might want to consider a viv so you can regulate the temperatures better/easier.

Diet... look into the many pelleted diets that you can supplement with the weeds. It will make your life easier and your tortoises life healthier.

Infrared bulbs are not a good thing because they are very difficult to control.

A heat mat is another option.


Hi, I need some advice on what temp to keep my tortoise table at and a few other pointers. I understand he needs a cool end, a hide and a basking area. However his table is 60cm x 60cm is this too small for a 2 year old, 170g 10cm hermann. Also he has a 75w Exo Terra Sun Glo UV Basking Bulb. With a reptiglow 13w (5 UVB) for basking on his welsh slate tile. A habba hut which he isnt too kean on. A water dish he ignores (i have never seen him drink) although I bath him twice weekly and have seen him pass the 'toothpaste' looking fluids. He gets vitamins (reptavite) twice a week and as varied a diet as I can find with limited knowledge. I'm growing some weeds and flowers in pots c/o shelledwarriorshop ;) The problem is I do not have any central heating in my apartement, its currently around 20 degrees thanks to the neighbour having some but it wont be warm for much longer. I need to sort out his thermo regulation ASAP in order to prevent him from hibernating as I have decided he is only 2 and been with us for 6 weeks now, is this a bad decision ? Are the infrared bulbs the best way to keep his table warm as i understand heat matts are incorrect due to heat from above being the correct method. I have covered the lot in one post and I hope I am being a good parent but definately need some advice. thx

[NATURALIS]

To the OP read this,
http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/vivarium.htm

[EJ]

You've got to wonder what kind of advice you are getting when one of the first statements is that if you can't house a tortoise outdoors... don't get one.

Here's a little more objective source of information that you might find useful. It was written for Russian tortoises but it covers all Testudo...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Russian-Tortoises-Complete-Herp-Care/dp/0793828821

[ONielsen]

"This review is from: Russian Tortoises (Complete Herp Care Series) (Paperback)
Having kept and succesfully bred Russian Tortoises for a number of years, I found the advice in this book to be rather poor and misleading and could lead to alot of problems with tortoises if the advice is followed, not I book I would recommend. "


You've got to wonder what kind of advice you are getting when one of the first statements is that if you can't house a tortoise outdoors... don't get one.

Here's a little more objective source of information that you might find useful. It was written for Russian tortoises but it covers all Testudo...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Russian-Tortoises-Complete-Herp-Care/dp/0793828821

[EJ]

I love it when information is taken out of context.

I'm sure the OP is smart enough to read the objective reviews and the opinions of those on this forum who have actually read the book.

You can't deny that if the book is in it's 3rd or 4th printing... it can't be all bad.

Again... it is an objective presentation on tortoise keeping and is not intended to sway a tortoise keeper in any one direction. All information is presented in an objective fashion and the keeper can decide which route to take.

...and to be fair...

This is another review of the same book...
if your interested in tortoises or have one then this book is well worth it.it has tons detail & images & its basic no waffle this book focuses on russian tortoise species only.horsfield,hermani`s & more.i have one & i often turn to this book when i need to.

I hope the op doesn't get scared off by this... but politics is a HUGE part of tortoise keeping.

[NATURALIS]

this thread started by the OP asking for help with Hermanns tortoise , so just for once carn't we get back on topic 'HERMANN'S TORTOISE

[EJ]

Congratulations on your new Mod status.

Last time I looked Hermanns are still classed as TESTUDO hermanni. The book I mentioned covers all Testudo. It presents nice, friendly, objective, political free information to tortoise keeping while focusing on all Testudo... which includes Hermanns tortoises... unless I missed the last taxonomic change.

I've been trying to keep it on track... but for some reason I keep getting these snipes.

I really hope the OP is not hiding under the bed after all this...

this thread started by the OP asking for help with Hermanns tortoise , so just for once carn't we get back on topic 'HERMANN'S TORTOISE

[NATURALIS]

horsfield's arn't Hermann's , the OP asked about HERMANN'S not about paperback's on Horsfield's . Yet again another thread sidetracked to suit your agenda , the OP has given up with this thread and started another , not that you would have noticed.

[EJ]

They have that choice... The information is here or there. Why would you even point that out to me unless...

I do have an agenda... to present all the information I can on tortoise keeping and not try to force feed any new keeper one single point of view... my bad.

Again... Hermanns are Testudo... The book is on Testudo... read the title carefully... try not to miss ALLLLLLL the information and only pick out what you choose.

Btw... notice the time stamps on the threads.

horsfield's arn't Hermann's , the OP asked about HERMANN'S not about paperback's on Horsfield's . Yet again another thread sidetracked to suit your agenda , the OP has given up with this thread and started another , not that you would have noticed.

[NATURALIS]

I've never force feed any one view point unlike other's , i've given info on the best book's available ie: Wolfgang , Vetter and Andy highfield to name few , these are people that's studied tortoise's in there natural environment over many year's , so have first hand invaluble knowledge ( in my opinion ) offer the best advice available today on the subject , amen.

[EJ]

To be clear... a plant based diet is the only way to go. That is a single point of view... the one you seem to be presenting...

My point... A plant based diet is preferable if all the nutritional bases are covered... pellets are a new alternative that takes out all of the guesswork in tortoise nutrition... That covers all the currently available tortoise nutrition information... one is not better than the other... both have pitfalls... no force feeding here.

While studying tortoises in the wild provides a little insight it does just that... provides insight. It does not provide the best way to keep them in captivity. Also... A couple of weeks a year is not really an extensive study.

...and you're allowed to express that opinion... as I am allowed to express mine.


I've never force feed any one view point unlike other's , i've given info on the best book's available ie: Wolfgang , Vetter and Andy highfield to name few , these are people that's studied tortoise's in there natural environment over many year's , so have first hand invaluble knowledge ( in my opinion ) offer the best advice available today on the subject , amen.

[NATURALIS]

To be clear... a plant based diet is the only way to go. That is a single point of view... the one you seem to be presenting...

My point... A plant based diet is preferable if all the nutritional bases are covered... pellets are a new alternative that takes out all of the guesswork in tortoise nutrition... That covers all the currently available tortoise nutrition information... one is not better than the other... both have pitfalls... no force feeding here.

While studying tortoises in the wild provides a little insight it does just that... provides insight. It does not provide the best way to keep them in captivity. Also... A couple of weeks a year is not really an extensive study.

...and you're allowed to express that opinion... as I am allowed to express mine.

ok then can you tell me what nutritional diet a tortoise need's ?

[EJ]

Would you like a copy of that paper?

It pretty much spells out what I've been saying all along... nobody really knows. We go for the best guess. This can be accomplished either by feeding a huge variety of plants or a well researched selected variety of plants where the nutritional value of each species is known and not duplicated or a well formulated pelleted diet which contains as many nutrients as possible in a relatively good ratio. Can you detect a pattern to this statement?

ok then can you tell me what nutritional diet a tortoise need's ?

[ONielsen]

No , this beats the wild for sure ...
Here you can really study them !

http://shelledwarriors.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=10195





To be clear... a plant based diet is the only way to go. That is a single point of view... the one you seem to be presenting...

My point... A plant based diet is preferable if all the nutritional bases are covered... pellets are a new alternative that takes out all of the guesswork in tortoise nutrition... That covers all the currently available tortoise nutrition information... one is not better than the other... both have pitfalls... no force feeding here.

While studying tortoises in the wild provides a little insight it does just that... provides insight. It does not provide the best way to keep them in captivity. Also... A couple of weeks a year is not really an extensive study.

...and you're allowed to express that opinion... as I am allowed to express mine.

[EJ]

Taken out of context... a common tactic among some folks.

Let me put it back in context.

I've actually learned which is how that setup came about. There are certain species like the Egyptian and Chaco tortoise... among others that do not do well outdoors through most of the year through most of the states in the US and thrive in such a set up as many experienced keepers have learned... the hard way.

It's like using pellets... their needs can be met by different means if you fully understand the animal. It is so easy to throw the animal out in the yard if you are lucky enough to live in a climate that will allow you to do so but it is a totally different thing to provide for the animal 100% from start to finish.

Oh... they are not in the wild. They are totally dependent on the keeper unless the keeper lives in their native habitat.

I get the impression that most new keepers come to this forum to learn how these animals are kept in captivity... pets.

One other btw... why not post some photos of my outdoor enclosures?

No , this beats the wild for sure ...
Here you can really study them !

http://shelledwarriors.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=10195

[dymmy]

You've got to wonder what kind of advice you are getting when one of the first statements is that if you can't house a tortoise outdoors... don't get one.

Here's a little more objective source of information that you might find useful. It was written for Russian tortoises but it covers all Testudo...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Russian-Tortoises-Complete-Herp-Care/dp/0793828821
thx and agreed, a mixed bag of information

[EJ]

Please don't let this scare you... passions run high on both ends of the spectrum... and all have something you can learn from.

thx and agreed, a mixed bag of information

[NATURALIS]

Taken out of context... a common tactic among some folks.

Let me put it back in context.

I've actually learned which is how that setup came about. There are certain species like the Egyptian and Chaco tortoise... among others that do not do well outdoors through most of the year through most of the states in the US and thrive in such a set up as many experienced keepers have learned... the hard way.

It's like using pellets... their needs can be met by different means if you fully understand the animal. It is so easy to throw the animal out in the yard if you are lucky enough to live in a climate that will allow you to do so but it is a totally different thing to provide for the animal 100% from start to finish.

Oh... they are not in the wild. They are totally dependent on the keeper unless the keeper lives in their native habitat.

I get the impression that most new keepers come to this forum to learn how these animals are kept in captivity... pets.

One other btw... why not post some photos of my outdoor enclosures?

Whilst keeper's want to know how to keep them in captivity , the first place to study them is in there natural environment , from this you can learn many thing's , to start with by trying to replicate there enclosure to one as close as possable to nature , Wolfgang's book has a whole chapter on this subject alone . For those of you who haven't studied wild tortoise's there a different animal than one stuck in a small bland enclosure .

[EJ]

It's quite presumptious to believe that the average keeper can know let alone duplicate the tortoise 'natural' environment. Even the 'experienced' keeper makes a huge assumption when they say they know what the 'natural' habitat is like. Again... most researchers... serious keepers... only see a tiny snippet of the animal in the wild when they are fortunate enough to see that animal in the wild.

There are different mindsets. There are those who try to understand what the animal actually needs and there are those who try to provide what the keeper thinks they need.

In captivity... sometimes the bland enclosure is better for the survival of the animal... in captivity.



Whilst keeper's want to know how to keep them in captivity , the first place to study them is in there natural environment , from this you can learn many thing's , to start with by trying to replicate there enclosure to one as close as possable to nature , Wolfgang's book has a whole chapter on this subject alone . For those of you who haven't studied wild tortoise's there a different animal than one stuck in a small bland enclosure .

[NATURALIS]

It's quite presumptious to believe that the average keeper can know let alone duplicate the tortoise 'natural' environment. Even the 'experienced' keeper makes a huge assumption when they say they know what the 'natural' habitat is like. Again... most researchers... serious keepers... only see a tiny snippet of the animal in the wild when they are fortunate enough to see that animal in the wild.

There are different mindsets. There are those who try to understand what the animal actually needs and there are those who try to provide what the keeper thinks they need.

In captivity... sometimes the bland enclosure is better for the survival of the animal... in captivity.

Totally cannot agree , watching a wild tortoise hunt for there food can be replicated in captivity and become different animal's and actually interact with there enclosure .
Keeping any animal in a bland enclosure is even condemed by modern zoo's who now see benefit's from stimulating animal's for the well being of the animal's .

[EJ]

That's cool... and not a surprise.

I guess you need to work with more species. Sometimes... simpler is better. Is that the only way to keep tortoises...no... it all depends. It is not black and white. Sometimes a natural environment is the way to go... sometimes a sterile environment is the only way to go with some species... and stages of species.

Totally cannot agree , watching a wild tortoise hunt for there food can be replicated in captivity and become different animal's and actually interact with there enclosure .
Keeping any animal in a bland enclosure is even condemed by modern zoo's who now see benefit's from stimulating animal's for the well being of the animal's .

[NATURALIS]

That's cool... and not a surprise.

I guess you need to work with more species. Sometimes... simpler is better. Is that the only way to keep tortoises...no... it all depends. It is not black and white. Sometimes a natural environment is the way to go... sometimes a sterile environment is the only way to go with some species... and stages of species.

I'm done with this thread , i'm sure people can see where i'm coming from , i have better thing's to do than play tennis

[EJ]

Typical. The thread was actually going somewhere.

It is a tennis match. There is point and counter point. Each pass draws out some information from each perspective.

I'm done with this thread , i'm sure people can see where i'm coming from , i have better thing's to do than play tennis

[Neddy]

Or just puts people off asking questions in the future......................

[NATURALIS]

Or just puts people off asking questions in the future......................

i think you have something there xx

[EJ]

Out ruled here. I'll retreat to my corner and keep my opinions to myself... although it seems there are some unanswered questions.

i think you have something there xx

[tootsieroll61]

Or just puts people off asking questions in the future......................

It has put me off lol x think I will just email Chris direct :roll:

[EJ]

Kind of sidesteps the purpose of a forum... to discuss... get different ideas... socialize.

It has put me off lol x think I will just email Chris direct :roll:

[ONielsen]

I think most do allready :) .

It has put me off lol x think I will just email Chris direct :roll:

[tootsieroll61]

Kind of sidesteps the purpose of a forum... to discuss... get different ideas... socialize.

Point taken , but sometimes too much info is dangerous too.. And I will stick by my freedom of choice and ask just one person per question .. as whilst it may be the same answers given by multiple, I personally struggle with too much info, so thanks for your input , and who knows I may even ask you a question or two... thanks :)

[dymmy]

I am almost sorry I asked for help :(

[dymmy]

2ft x 2ft is a bit small really, it's best to have it as big as you can.

if using the basking bulb + UVB bulb method it's best to have a 10.0 or 12.0 UVB bulb (for redfoots, 5.0 is fine)

As said above 32c is about the minimum basking temp and 32-35c being in about what you want but if it goes higher then they just move away from the bulb a bit, that's where having a bigger table benefits, they need to escape the heat if they want. About 20c at cool end is fine but again, if it's cooler than that then they simply come closer to the heat. A slate isn't great for a basking spot as it can become too hot to sit on.

Heat mats can be used so long as they are used properly, opinion is divided on them but in the wild they get heat from below also as the ground is warm. Look up some threads on heat mats in the search facility.

They don't always drink when you are looking so water must always be available. A bath once a day will help prevent dehydration and the formation of bladder stones and it also encourages them to drink which in turn may help prevent pyramiding of the shell (Manuel Wegehaupt theory) and you should give reptivite or Nutrobal daily since your UVB bulb is only 5.0, most people give it daily or every second day in any case.

You need to provide extra calcium in the form of limestone flour or calci dust and also a cuttlefish bone which provides calcium and helps keep the beak in trim even though they only eat it now and again
I decided to build him a bigger home,over double the size now ;) he is very happy with it as he digs in and even uses his log to sleep in. I bought a 125W Solar Glo and a heat mat that will be used in an experiment to up the tables temp. I will use it carefully and monitor it extensively until I am happy that he is ok with it. The lime flour has arrived, the opuntia too so he has a more varied diet and even seems to enjoy his baths. I realise he has settled down a great deal and I am now researching his hibernation process as I think it is sensible to allow him to have as natural a lifecycle as possible. Thx for your advice.... ;)