Care for the Wild International

[Geomyda]

www.careforthewild.org
For those who have yet to look at this topic, let me recommend that you look at the attached link, and consider signing their on line petition!
I can say that progress is being made, and high level meetings are taking place with Tesco plc, with a view to getting a review of their tading policies in their Chinese subsidiary.
Care for the wild has got the support of many of the most important field Biologists and Herpetologists in the world, including some of the most eminent for China itself.
However, to make a difference, continued pressure from UK public is very important in order to drive home the message that UK shareholders and Customers are against current trading policies, and they need to be changed.
Let us hope that in an uncertain economic world, we can still make a difference to the global policies of one of our largest retail business's?

[Bindi]

All done! :grin:

[Geomyda]

All done! :grin:
Fantastic, only another 2800 approx to go??

[Bindi]

That's not that many :|

[shafach]

All sorted, and i hav emailed 20 mates to do the same...

[Zen]

Filled in, signed, and sent !!!!

[Bindi]

All sorted, and i hav emailed 20 mates to do the same...
Good on ya Sha, I shall be doing the same tomorrow....hang on, I don't think I've got 20 mates!!!!:lol:
But I shall send it to the loyal few I do have!! :D:D:D:D

[shafach]

Am sure you have many buddies who will be happy to sign and pass on... had no idea this was happening to the turtles via Tesco...

[Beverley]

I have known about this campaign for a while and for the last year I have stopped shopping in Tescos, I know its not much but at least in my own small way I am trying to do something, I have written to tescos and got some of my friends to do the same, I did not even get a reply :(

[Geomyda]

I have known about this campaign for a while and for the last year I have stopped shopping in Tescos, I know its not much but at least in my own small way I am trying to do something, I have written to tescos and got some of my friends to do the same, I did not even get a reply :(
For those who have written, and not received a reply, can you please forward copies of your correspondence to me via pm. As we are attending a meeting at their HQ early next month these will be brought up as an outstanding issue in the agenda!
Thanks

[Helen M]

I have signed. I wrote a letter some time ago and did recieve a reply. It was pretty sickening reading. They knew what they were doing was wrong and they still wanted to go ahead regardless. They mentioned some research that an 'independant' company had undertaken. When i asked to see it i was told no as it was company sensitive. No doubt it probably didn't exist or it told them they were wrong in the first place.
Helen xx

[Geomyda]

I have signed. I wrote a letter some time ago and did recieve a reply. It was pretty sickening reading. They knew what they were doing was wrong and they still wanted to go ahead regardless. They mentioned some research that an 'independant' company had undertaken. When i asked to see it i was told no as it was company sensitive. No doubt it probably didn't exist or it told them they were wrong in the first place.
Helen xx
I have pm'd a reply!
Don't lose heart. Remember that the Tortoise won the race!!

[Kirkie]

I signed up via http://www.thepetitionsite.com/petition/518761759 . The Tortoise Trust article now includes Walmart in the USA (therefore Asda in the UK) as suppliers of reptiles to the chinese food trade. This isn't just a fight against big business its a fight against generations of a cultural difference. There is still a thriving illegal import trade of wild caught turtles from Asia for the Chinese food market. Some of the images are distressing but the topic can be found at:
http://www.nwf.org/NationalWildlife/article.cfm?issueID=80&articleID=1188

Were not immune to this ingrained cultural ignorance. Right here in the UK the Eel population (ok not cute, unlikely to be kept as pets but bear with me ) has been decimated (thought to be 98% of the population dead) by a virus. What has happened here?have we sought to ban the use of Eels in cuisine (I'm from London remember :)) no. Whats happened is that Elvers, the tiny young of Eels, have become a delicacy. They, are fried, alive, and served up to mugs who will happily pay exorbitant prices for the dubious pleasure and Gordon bleeding Ramsey glorifies it on one of his stupid macho "hunting" trips on his TV show.

[Kirkie]

I hope I din't sound lke I thought this is not a worthy cause (As Tesco's themselves say "every little helps") but it is the tip of the iceberg. Big businesses like Tesco's and Walmart will respond to a demand. The demand in China is for turtles. They are fulfilling that demand, they have no ethic's, thats why they got so big. However it's rife all over the world. Wheres the petition to ban frogs legs in France? There are no sanctuaries for legless frogs in France, they die. On a visit to to a Florida Alligator "sanctuary" I was offered Alligator meat to try as I walked through the door! We are talking about cultures different to our own but we must also look at ourselves. Why do we keep Tortoises and turtles? Is it because we feel we can offer then something better than the natural world can provide? They have survived for 250 million years, through ice ages, climate change and more. They are adaptable, do they survive rather than thrive in our care because of this adaptability? They will even breed in our care, is this because they are "happy"or is it to ensure the survival of their species under any circumstances? Why do we keep tortoises? its for our benefit. In much the same way the chinese gain pleasure from eating turtles we derive pleasure from keeping a wild animal. Therefore it is our responsibility to give something back to that captive animal, to ensure it does more than survive. This IS something we can all make a difference with as the task is your own personal responsibility not that of a business or a country.

[Geomyda]

I signed up via http://www.thepetitionsite.com/petition/518761759 . The Tortoise Trust article now includes Walmart in the USA (therefore Asda in the UK) as suppliers of reptiles to the chinese food trade. This isn't just a fight against big business its a fight against generations of a cultural difference. There is still a thriving illegal import trade of wild caught turtles from Asia for the Chinese food market. Some of the images are distressing but the topic can be found at:
http://www.nwf.org/NationalWildlife/article.cfm?issueID=80&articleID=1188

Were not immune to this ingrained cultural ignorance. Right here in the UK the Eel population (ok not cute, unlikely to be kept as pets but bear with me ) has been decimated (thought to be 98% of the population dead) by a virus. What has happened here?have we sought to ban the use of Eels in cuisine (I'm from London remember :)) no. Whats happened is that Elvers, the tiny young of Eels, have become a delicacy. They, are fried, alive, and served up to mugs who will happily pay exorbitant prices for the dubious pleasure and Gordon bleeding Ramsey glorifies it on one of his stupid macho "hunting" trips on his TV show.


This is a great post! Fantastic to see people investigating the issue with Published facts. Yes indeed, Walmart too through it's Asian subsidiary is actively involved in the trade. There are also French and German multinationals who have invested in the burgeoning Chinese "SUPER" market!
However, these company's are investing their western shareholders funds, and still largely depend on the custom of consumers like all of us to fuel their global expansion.
Perhaps the ignorance of the consumer is the key point at issue here? -- For an informed public may choose to use their purchasing power to influence the corporate policies and future strategy of these global business's, and in doing so exert the necessary pressure on Governments to at least abide by CITES rules that are already signed up to!
The issues of the Asian Turtle trade are quite complex, and cover 1. Conservation. 2. Human health, 3. Animal welfare.
Your points in respect of the trade and consumption of Eels, though important should not distract the focus of a subject which needs clear objectives.
Through education, and public awareness the current policies of Western investment in China, can and should be undertaken with responsible and sustainable stewardship. To say that the culture of China is beyond change is to ignore the realities of a global market in the 21st Century.
If we just accepted that culture does'nt change, the fact is when the first Supermarket is opened in Borneo or PNG, we might accept that the heads of the local natives might well be served up? (Only if they were farmed of course).

[Kirkie]

Education, education, education as someone once said. It's the key. Thats why the petition is a valid and worthy means of protest. The head of Tesco's probably only see's profit sheets not petitions. My only concern is at what point do Western consumer opinion's, and therefore Tesco profits, become negated by the huge potential of the Chinese consumer market.

[Geomyda]

Education, education, education as someone once said. It's the key. Thats why the petition is a valid and worthy means of protest. The head of Tesco's probably only see's profit sheets not petitions. My only concern is at what point do Western consumer opinion's, and therefore Tesco profits, become negated by the huge potential of the Chinese consumer market.

As they say, "Every LIDL helps"!!

[Geomyda]

We had the meeting with Tesco's Corporate Responsibility Director, and one of her colleagues yesterday. Another two and a half hour session!
Though not itself conclusive, it is clear that the pressure from members of the public here in the UK is definitely ringing bells at the highest levels in their organisation. It was agreed that their 20 million UK customers does mean rather more than the return on their sale of 100,000 live Turtles in China in the last year of operations. However, no decision has been made to withdraw at this time.
No doubt that further work is required, and continued support to the "Care for the Wild" petition is still necessary.
For latest information; www.careforthewild.com

[Kirkie]

Good news. Shame that any descision appears as if it will be made on economic viability rather than welfare concerns. Sounds to me like they're saying "were not making that much out of it and its not worth the grief".

[Bindi]

Not as much as they're making out of the UK anyway. Thanks Paul for keeping us updated, what's next? I know the petition is growing and hopefully making an impact

[Kirkie]

I've just found this
http://www.viva.org.uk/campaigns/turtle/replytotesco.html

Is this the Tesco's standard letter thats been spoken of? (Tesco paragraphs in bold, VIVA comments in plain text).

[Geomyda]

I've just found this
http://www.viva.org.uk/campaigns/turtle/replytotesco.html

Is this the Tesco's standard letter thats been spoken of? (Tesco paragraphs in bold, VIVA comments in plain text).
Yes, indeed this is one of their standard replies.
The debate continues?

[Kirkie]

This is from an article in the Guardian 28th June 08. Predominantly concerning Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall highjacking the Tesco AGM to highlight issues with poultry, the article contains the following paragraph:

"Tesco's chairman, David Reid, described the company as a leader in poultry welfare and said it would be willing to take part in broader government-led discussions, something welcomed by Fearnley-Whittingstall. "There clearly is a debate and issues, and the best way of working that through is as an industry," Reid said.

As the third biggest retailer in the world, accounting for one in every seven pounds spent on the high street in Britain, Tesco has become a magnet for criticism.

Care for the Wild said Tesco was playing a role in the march towards extinction of freshwater turtles by selling them for food in China; a prickly Reid interrupted the speaker to ask: "Did you ask the people in China what they thought? It is debatable to what degree we should sit in Britain and dictate what they should eat."
A more conciliatory Sir Terry Leahy, the chief executive, said that if any scientific evidence emerged that the turtles were endangered then Tesco would act. He also agreed that the retailer perhaps could do more to ensure its standards on the treatment of the turtles, toughened up last year, were adhered to."


Chinese Soft Shelled Turtles are rated as vunerable on the IUCN Red list (funnily enough due to heavy consumer pressure) . Is that not enough given Sir Tel's comments?

[Geomyda]

One would definatley of thought so!
However, at this time their argument centres on two areas.
1. The Chinese consumer demands the sale of Live Turtles- Who are we to say that they cannot have them. If we believe this argument, is the case for the sale of live dogs for Human consumption not equally applicable?
Similarly, when one day, the mighty Super market enters the Indonisian market, and opens its doors in Borneo, or PNG/Irian Jaya, then we might expect Human flesh to be served up- Farmed and suitably "trussed up" of course?
2. The Softshell Turtle (Pelodiscus sinensis), is a farmed animal and no longer threatened as a Wild species. As you correctly say, despite the massive expansion in Turtle Farms in South Asia, the species is listed currently as vunerable in the Wild. This status is likely to be elevated at the next IUCN review.
Work by the eminent Chinese Turtle Biologist, Prof Shi Haitao, et al, has concluded that the Turtle farming practice is flawed and is responsible for "Farming Endangered Turtles to Extinction in China".

Both of these points are being actively debated, and in addition, two further areas are being questioned:

3. Animal welfare; Methodology, of Husbandry, transport and Slaughter?

4. Human Health; issues relating to use of Hormones, Antibiotics, Bacterial and Virus infections.

It would be heartening to think that through reasoned debate this issue might reach a mutually acceptable conclusion. However, I remain doubtful, unless continued public pressure can focus the potential adverse consequences for a business that counts up to twenty million UK customers in its business model!

[Bindi]

That's a good link, Kirkie, I'm just about to send it to all of my friends so they can send a virtual postcard. I'd like to urge other members to take a look so that if they care to they can send an e card really quickly and easily to Tesco voicing their objection to their involvement in such cruel practices

[Kirkie]

When I sent the E Card I substituted "as a Tesco Customer" to "As an Ex Customer" tho :)
Dunno which is better, might be better to leave it as customer. :?

[ME SHELL]

I've sent one off too.

[Bindi]

When I sent the E Card I substituted "as a Tesco Customer" to "As an Ex Customer" tho :)
Dunno which is better, might be better to leave it as customer. :?

Well, I left it as 'customer,' but I also said I would have to seriously think about whether I could continue to spend my hard earned money with a company who obviously had no regard for animal welfare.

[Geomyda]

Need I say more? The date published, is also "Rememberance day"!

Read the full report: "The State of Wildlife Trade in China in 2007" [doc, 332 KB]


The majority of illegal wild animal trade in China was found to be in freshwater turtles and snakes
© WWF Cambodia / You Porny

11 Nov 2008
Beijing, China : The consumption of threatened species is on the rise in China again following a brief hiatus owing to fears surrounding the SARS virus in 2003.

A survey of five southern Chinese cities by TRAFFIC, the wildlife trade monitoring network, found that 13 of 25 mark ets and 20 of 50 restaurants had wild animals for sale. A total of 56 species were found and, of these, eight are protected under Chinese law and 17 are protected under CITES, which prohibits or strictly controls international trade.

The majority of illegal wild animal trade was in freshwater turtles and snakes. In China , freshwater turtles and snakes are sold mostly for their meat and for medicinal purposes.

The findings are included in the TRAFFIC report entitled The State of Wildlife Trade in China in 2007, published today. Also found by the report is the fact that Chinese traditional medicine trade is growing rapidly and that China is the world’s second largest wood importer.

“The report examines the impact China ’s consumption is having on biodiversity and what emerging trends there are in wildlife trade,” said Professor Xu Hongfa, co-ordinator of TRAFFIC’s China Programme.

The report notes that that while Russia is currently the top supplier of wood to China , Africa increasingly accounts for a growing percentage which is stimulating illegal timber trade in Africa .

“Chinese companies buying African timber must ensure the benefits of the timber trade are equitably shared, right down to the African rural communities on whose land the trees are growing,” said Professor Xu.

Chinese traditional medicine trade has grown at an annual rate of 10 per cent since 2003. Most exports ($687 million-worth) go to Asia, but Europe ($162 million) and North America ($144 million) are increasingly important mark ets.

Over-harvesting and poor management of resources are looming threats, and currently there are no standards to ensure the sustainable collection of wild medicinal plants.

“The trends seen in this report that show increasing demand in wildlife products and diminishing supply should be a wake-up call for law enforcement, policy makers and consumers,” said Dr. Susan Lieberman, Director of WWF International’s Species Programme.

“We call upon Chinese authorities to enhance enforcement and public education efforts, to stop illegal trade and reduce consumption of threatened species from around the world.”

One bright spot for China is the fact that the illegal ivory trade is declining. The report found that the situation has improved since a year earlier, with surveys showing a substantial reduction in the number of outlets selling ivory illegally.

“The reduction in the illegal ivory trade is very welcome, but we urge the authorities to remain vigilant, particularly to ensure there is no laundering of illegal ivory,” said Professor Xu.

The report is the second in an annual series on emerging trends in China ’s wildlife trade, and provides up-to-date reviews of work being carried out to prevent illegal and support sustainable trade in China .

Other issues examined in the report include the illegal trade in musk, the link between the sea cucumber trade to Taiwan with marine biodiversity in the Galapagos, and links between Russian salmon fisheries and Chinese mark ets.

[ME SHELL]

This is the reply I had today:(

Thank you for your email.

We appreciate you are concerned about the animal welfare issues associated with the sale of turtles in China. So are we. That's why we commissioned independent research, considered the available academic evidence and have been in dialogue with the animal welfare charity, Care for the Wild so that we can make progress on a sound basis.

As a result, we have made several significant improvements to the way turtles are sold in our stores. We are also developing a public awareness campaign to help consumers understand animal welfare and to provide advice on the best treatment of live turtles where customers choose to take them home.

This approach to animal welfare and the sale of live turtles, commissioning research, acting on it and educating customers, is unprecedented by any retailer operating in China and we hope that these actions will help to drive up standards throughout the supply chain.

Some organisations such as Care for the Wild and VIVA are now asking us to stop selling live turtles completely and you may agree with this demand. While we are committed to upholding the very important issue of animal welfare, we also need to balance different cultural attitudes, in this case respecting the different traditions, expectations and values on this issue that exists in China.

Turtles are a popular and traditional part of the Chinese diet and having addressed some important animal welfare concerns, we currently continue to sell live turtles in our stores in China.

Thank you for your interest in this issue.


If you have any further queries please do not hesitate to contact us at customer.service@tesco.co.uk (customer.service@tesco.co.uk) quoting TES5761112X.

Kind Regards


Lori Milne
Customer Service Manager
Tesco Customer Service

[Kirkie]

Hmmm... that sounds familiar Me Shell, I'm sure I've read it somewhere before. :rolleyes:

Least you got a reply, I didn't.

I'm off to read that report.http://www.shelledwarriors.co.uk/forum/images/icons/icon8.gif

[Bindi]

I got exactly the same reply today too

[Kirkie]

I've just found their response in my email. They do say to send them any other questions so I've just sent them this, kept my tongue firmly in my cheek for paragraph one :)

"Thankyou for your prompt response in regard to my email voicing concerns over Tesco's continued practise of selling (and decapitating) live turtles in it's stores in China. This exact email has been received by many associates today so it is good to see Tesco are taking this issue seriously by providing a timely and well thought out response to its customers concerns.

In reference to statement made Sir Terry Leahy, the chief executive, at this years Tesco's AGM in which he stated that "if any scientific evidence emerged that the turtles were endangered then Tesco would act."

Could you please advise as to whether a report issued on November 11th by Care of the Wild titled "The State of Wildlife Trade in China in 2007" will be considered evidence that the continuation of the practise of selling turtles in store is contributiong to the decline of the species involved?

The report specifies "The majority of illegal wild animal trade was in freshwater turtles and snakes. In China , freshwater turtles and snakes are sold mostly for their meat and for medicinal purposes."

The full report can be found at www.traffic.org/home/2008/11/11/state-of-wildlife-trade-in-china-finds-consumption-is-rising.html (http://www.traffic.org/home/2008/11/11/state-of-wildlife-trade-in-china-finds-consumption-is-rising.html)


Thankyou for your attention."

[Geomyda]

This report, is actually published by Traffic.org, not Care for the Wild, but I am sure that they will publish further reports shortly.
It will be interesting to see what additional response, if any your latest letter receives?
Regards
Paul

[Kirkie]

Doh, thats the problem with working 16 hours straight today, my brains in a mush. Doubt they'll notice my mistake. We''ll see.

[ME SHELL]

Well done Kirkie, let us know how you get on

[Kirkie]

Had another response from Tesco:



Thank you for contacting us again.

I am sorry that you remain unhappy with our decision to sell live turtles in our Chinese stores.

I would like to assure you that we have developed a public awareness campaign to help consumers understand animal welfare and to give advice on the best treatment of turtles, where consumers choose to take them home as live animals.

We have also identified one species of turtle which is popular with customers and can be killed in a more humane way. We no longer sell species of turtles where research shows that this more humane method cannot be achieved.

Please be reassured that, although we currently have no plans to stop selling live turtles, we are continually monitoring customer feedback about this issue.

I can also assure you that your own comments, along with any others that we may receive, will be taken on board.

Kind Regards


Helen Duke
Customer Service Executive

[EJ]

Do you see the point?... the consumer out
numbers your opinion.

I don't think you're going to change that. Rethink your position and determine a compromise... that might work.

Had another response from Tesco:



Thank you for contacting us again.

I am sorry that you remain unhappy with our decision to sell live turtles in our Chinese stores.

I would like to assure you that we have developed a public awareness campaign to help consumers understand animal welfare and to give advice on the best treatment of turtles, where consumers choose to take them home as live animals.

We have also identified one species of turtle which is popular with customers and can be killed in a more humane way. We no longer sell species of turtles where research shows that this more humane method cannot be achieved.

Please be reassured that, although we currently have no plans to stop selling live turtles, we are continually monitoring customer feedback about this issue.

I can also assure you that your own comments, along with any others that we may receive, will be taken on board.

Kind Regards


Helen Duke
Customer Service Executive

[gtm]

Do you see the point?... the consumer out
numbers your opinion.

I don't think you're going to change that. Rethink your position and determine a compromise... that might work.


I agree - I've said before this is a cultural issue rather than a 'Tesco' problem. I think other strategies are more likely to help the softshell turtles - ie supporting on the ground conservation organisations.

[Geomyda]

Do you see the point?... the consumer out
numbers your opinion.

I don't think you're going to change that. Rethink your position and determine a compromise... that might work.

It was stated by Terry Leahy, the Tesco Chairman, at the 2008 AGM that they would review the situation after they looked at the scientific evidence, commissioned by themselves. Let me say, that having now seen this evidence, which is a document currently submitted for peer review, the case is far from clear.
First off, the presentation, which is voluminous in text, opens with a statement, a description of a farmed Softshell Turtle, then a photograph of the wrong species.
It then discusses the history and a bit of Chelonian Biology, claiming the Turtles have been on the Planet for 2.5 Billion years and that the earliest fossil evidence in China, is 6000 million years! Both of these statements, completly false!!
What came first, "the soup or the Turtle"?
Throughout the text there are inaccuracies, which include tables of species native to china, which differs one from the other. Some of the Latin nomenclature for the same species also varies through the document, and some very naive statements are made about the biology of the Chelonian group.
Clearly this document will be correctly reviewed by academics, and written response will be sent to Tesco for their perusal.
However, until this is done, the Jury remains OUT on this highly contentious trade.
You of course, are quite entitled too your own opinion, but I firmly believe that the case for the current practice of selling live Turtles for food by a UK owned Supermarket, in their Chinese subsidiary is flawed, and should be stopped.

[linda.t]

do you really think that tesco care what a we think.
because i don't think they do all they care about is making a profit and nothing else.

[EJ]

No. Many tortoise keepers are what are called the lunatic fringe. There are some that approach this in a reasonable fashion... they will get a look and actually might have an influence.

If there is a reasonable response or action... people are more inclined to listen.

I don't see anything wrong with what TESCO is doing. I also don't see anything wrong with a reasonable objection. Key point... reasonable. Even though I don't agree with some of the positions to this topic I have the greatest admiration for the way some of the position in this case has been expressed.

do you really think that tesco care what a we think.
because i don't think they do all they care about is making a profit and nothing else.

[Geomyda]

do you really think that tesco care what a we think.
because i don't think they do all they care about is making a profit and nothing else.
To be honest, I am sure that Tesco wish this whole subject would drift into indifference! Their position in the Chinese SUPER market opportunity, is one of a global player seeking to build a market share in what is potentially the biggest consumer growth market in the next decade or more. To be frank, the money they have made, and possibly will make in the next few years of selling live turtles in China, is "no hill of beans"!
What I think they are currently afraid of, is the humiliation of climbing down on marketing a product they inherited, when they bought into the "China" operation.
What we need to do, is to reinforce the message that they invested in China with UK money! Their successful business model is based on listening to these very savy and dare I say it sophisticated customers, and the crass defence, in their argument that they are serving a cultural requirement is inexcusable. If this were the case, then oh so many offerrings would be served up in stores across the world. Which of course, they are not!
I am afraid that continued pressure, and the value of the UK £ is the only thing that will encourage them to take a lead on their competitors in this market, and genuinely make a change for the better.
EVERY LADLE HELPS

[EJ]

There's one arrogant point... for the better. Who's 'better'... yours... or theirs.

Let's look at basic history. The Chinese have been around for how long... the rest... for how long. We are going to tell them how to do it right?

How much technology have we stolen from them.

I'm getting deep here... but think about what I'm saying.

Their practices are uncivilized... according to who.

It's ironic how often judgement comes into play in this hobby. I think some need to step back and look at the proverbial big picture.

To be honest, I am sure that Tesco wish this whole subject would drift into indifference! Their position in the Chinese SUPER market opportunity, is one of a global player seeking to build a market share in what is potentially the biggest consumer growth market in the next decade or more. To be frank, the money they have made, and possibly will make in the next few years of selling live turtles in China, is "no hill of beans"!
What I think they are currently afraid of, is the humiliation of climbing down on marketing a product they inherited, when they bought into the "China" operation.
What we need to do, is to reinforce the message that they invested in China with UK money! Their successful business model is based on listening to these very savy and dare I say it sophisticated customers, and the crass defence, in their argument that they are serving a cultural requirement is inexcusable. If this were the case, then oh so many offerrings would be served up in stores across the world. Which of course, they are not!
I am afraid that continued pressure, and the value of the UK £ is the only thing that will encourage them to take a lead on their competitors in this market, and genuinely make a change for the better.
EVERY LADLE HELPS

[Geomyda]

There's one arrogant point... for the better. Who's 'better'... yours... or theirs.

Let's look at basic history. The Chinese have been around for how long... the rest... for how long. We are going to tell them how to do it right?

How much technology have we stolen from them.

I'm getting deep here... but think about what I'm saying.

Their practices are uncivilized... according to who.

It's ironic how often judgement comes into play in this hobby. I think some need to step back and look at the proverbial big picture.
I do not believe anyone is arguing against the fact, that the current consumption by China is bringing a whole vertebrate group (CHELONIA) to the verge of extinction. If that is the accepted? Then I forcefully argue that it is BETTER to demonstrate this is a travesty of human kind. The fact of the matter is the Chelonia predate Human form by over 200 million years, not billions of years as some would have us believe. However, in the BIG picture, this does give them a priority and respect that is deserved!!
The consumption of Turtle/Tortoise Flesh in China has esculated exponentially, in the last decade or so, and this mirrors the industrialisation, and dare I say it Westernisatiion, of their economy. From a barter economy to a cash economy in little under one generation. These changes require cultural attitudes to change!
Remember, in your country, you fought a civil war on the back of slavery!
Whilst I respect culture, and history,in any Civilisation, the current pillaging of a vertebrate group which gives its name to this Web forum is, not acceptable.

[EJ]

I come back to my original point...so... we know better than them.
Until this discussion... I didnt thnk much about it.

I just thought... they're fn' turtles. Do you see the point.

I'm sad to say that not many people see beyond the point.

yea... we know better than them.

bottom line... we have too much time and money.

Yea... how do I feed my family and kids tomorrow? Silly question.

We should be totally greatful for the causes we are allowed to take up. We should also think about the cultures we force ourselves on...



I do not believe anyone is arguing against the fact, that the current consumption by China is bringing a whole vertebrate group (CHELONIA) to the verge of extinction. If that is the accepted? Then I forcefully argue that it is BETTER to demonstrate this is a travesty of human kind. The fact of the matter is the Chelonia predate Human form by over 200 million years, not billions of years as some would have us believe. However, in the BIG picture, this does give them a priority and respect that is deserved!!
The consumption of Turtle/Tortoise Flesh in China has esculated exponentially, in the last decade or so, and this mirrors the industrialisation, and dare I say it Westernisatiion, of their economy. From a barter economy to a cash economy in little under one generation. These changes require cultural attitudes to change!
Remember, in your country, you fought a civil war on the back of slavery!
Whilst I respect culture, and history,in any Civilisation, the current pillaging of a vertebrate group which gives its name to this Web forum is, not acceptable.

[EJ]

Ya know... it just occued to me... yea I'm slow... imposing our values on the cultures of others.

We've developed the luxury...

Think about it.

[Geomyda]

I come back to my original point...so... we know better than them.
Until this discussion... I didnt thnk much about it.

I just thought... they're fn' turtles. Do you see the point.

I'm sad to say that not many people see beyond the point.

yea... we know better than them.

bottom line... we have too much time and money.

Yea... how do I feed my family and kids tomorrow? Silly question.

We should be totally greatful for the causes we are allowed to take up. We should also think about the cultures we force ourselves on...

If we really want to drill down on culture, the Buddhist tradition, which has strong links in China believe in respect for all living things, and some of the earliest art forms seen in China, depict the earth as a "mother Turtle", It's carapace representing the mantle (the Earth) that Man is supported by.
This representation, is also seen in other classic Civilisations, including the one in North America- predating European occupation by a few thousands of years. If you think about it this early American Civilisation is believed to have migrated across the Bearing land bridge from what we now call CHINA!
In Human history, cultures do develop and change, and some of the influences are values, imported and indeed exported across the World. Perhaps, it might be considered hypocritical that we in the West dictate to others that they should not "Slash and Burn" their Forests, hunt their Whales, respect Human rights, when we have been guilty of so much exploitation, in our own environments.
If we do nothing, but educate and enlighten from the experiences of our past, I believe that we are all on a very short road to oblivion!
From cultures across the world we see evidence of the ultimate price of over consumption, the Maya, in Mexico? and probably most graphically, the inhabitants of Easter island, in the South Pacific??
I am afraid, that to do nothing, because of respect for cultural difference is to ignore the consequences of over consumption!
I would ask that all those reading these threads, take time to look at the published literature, such as the recent traffic.org document. Having done so, consider the price of doing or saying NOTHING?

[Geomyda]

A presentation has been made to the Govenor of the State of Florida, by FloridaTurtle experts Working group, and IUCN/SSC, Tortoise and Freshwater Turtle specialist group;
Extreme concern over the "overfishing" of Florida's Wild Softshell turtle (Apalone ferox), which is supplying the Chinese food markets.

Indeed, in a recent document prepared for Tesco by the Shanghai Ocean University. The Cover picture of a Florida Softshell Turtle (Apalone Ferox) has been used, and mis-identified as a Chinese Softshell Turtle (Pelodiscus sinensis). If Chinese scientists struggle to tell the difference, it begs the question what their farmers and shop worker are actually farming and selling!!
In recent video images linked to this site, evidence of very large Softshell turles, obviously not (Pelodiscus sinensis), are shown being offloaded from refrigerated lorries in a Chinese Turtle wholesaler.

This latest reports further proves that Wild populations are being pillaged to fuel this unsustianable trade.

Let us make demand for at least a moratorium on the sale of Live Turtles in this food trade until a proper scientific study is produced, and published.
Any such study needs to be properly peer reviewed and accepted by a body of international experts?

[EJ]

As pointed out by the paper article I attached... how would you propose a population census be taken in the case of Softshells... they occur in almost every body of water in the southern US with ranges extending into the Western states where unwanted pets a being released. How do you control something that you have no idea as to the numbers.



A presentation has been made to the Govenor of the State of Florida, by FloridaTurtle experts Working group, and IUCN/SSC, Tortoise and Freshwater Turtle specialist group;
Extreme concern over the "overfishing" of Florida's Wild Softshell turtle (Apalone ferox), which is supplying the Chinese food markets.

Indeed, in a recent document prepared for Tesco by the Shanghai Ocean University. The Cover picture of a Florida Softshell Turtle (Apalone Ferox) has been used, and mis-identified as a Chinese Softshell Turtle (Pelodiscus sinensis). If Chinese scientists struggle to tell the difference, it begs the question what their farmers and shop worker are actually farming and selling!!
In recent video images linked to this site, evidence of very large Softshell turles, obviously not (Pelodiscus sinensis), are shown being offloaded from refrigerated lorries in a Chinese Turtle wholesaler.

This latest reports further proves that Wild populations are being pillaged to fuel this unsustianable trade.

Let us make demand for at least a moratorium on the sale of Live Turtles in this food trade until a proper scientific study is produced, and published.
Any such study needs to be properly peer reviewed and accepted by a body of international experts?

[Geomyda]

As pointed out by the paper article I attached... how would you propose a population census be taken in the case of Softshells... they occur in almost every body of water in the southern US with ranges extending into the Western states where unwanted pets a being released. How do you control something that you have no idea as to the numbers.
Perhaps, your post should have been in the past tense!
I guess the counter signatories to the presentation , who represent the most learned and scholarly Herpetologists in the world today, but what the hell do they know?
EJ, you do at times amaze me with your statements!!

[EJ]

They too have an agenda and I applaud them to persue that agenda... does that mean they are right?

I'm I to assume they know what they are talking about and follow them blindly?

My very basic question does have to be answered. I don't know where there is any study mentioned to support the idea for this organizations actions... What is not acceptable is the #s exported without the #s to support what is being removed from... it's kind of half the story.

Perhaps, your post should have been in the past tense!
I guess the counter signatories to the presentation , who represent the most learned and scholarly Herpetologists in the world today, but what the hell do they know?
EJ, you do at times amaze me with your statements!!

[Geomyda]

They too have an agenda and I applaud them to persue that agenda... does that mean they are right?

I'm I to assume they know what they are talking about and follow them blindly?

My very basic question does have to be answered. I don't know where there is any study mentioned to support the idea for this organizations actions... What is not acceptable is the #s exported without the #s to support what is being removed from... it's kind of half the story.

Why don't you ask them?
Their opinion's certainly have won the backing of the State Govenor of Florida!
As for blindly following, I do not think anyone would accuse you of that.

[EJ]

No point... really.



Why don't you ask them?
Their opinion's certainly have won the backing of the State Govenor of Florida!
As for blindly following, I do not think anyone would accuse you of that.

[Geomyda]

Posted in yesterday's edition of The Sun:

A TURTLE bit and broke a chef’s toe as it tried to escape the cooking pot.
The 2ft creature wriggled from the cook’s grip as it was lowered into a vat of boiling water.


It then munched one of his little toes as he tried to scoop it up from the kitchen floor.

The 35-year-old chef, wearing slippers, was taken to hospital in agony.


The turtle, due to be a delicacy for wealthy diners at Hong Kong’s Kuen Fat restaurant, was chased and caught.


And despite its reprieve it will be served at a banquet tomorrow.

At the size stated, this is not a Farmed Chinese Softshell turtle 2ft is just too big!!!
It may however, be a Wild caught Florida Soft shell Turtle??

[Geomyda]

Is this a good omen?
http://www.foxnews. com/story/ 0,2933,457868, 00.html

[sandy]

Sorry Paul the link does not work for me:(

[Geomyda]

Sorry Paul the link does not work for me:(SON TAY, Vietnam — A rare East Asian turtle, one of just four believed left in the world, was swept away by a flood, taken hostage by an enterprising fisherman and nearly ended up in a soup pot.

Instead, the 150-pound animal returned to its lake Wednesday and conservationists celebrated their deal with the fisherman — the turtle's freedom in exchange for about $200 and two new fishing nets.

Douglas Hendrie and other conservationists had been trying to find the turtle for two weeks after floods washed the animal out of Dong Mo Lake near Hanoi.

"Thank god it's over," said Hendrie, director of the Asian Turtle Program at the Cleveland Metroparks Zoo who also works with the conservation group, Education for Nature Vietnam. "We're happy that the turtle is back in the lake."

• Click here for more photos of the world's rarest turtle.

• Click here to visit FOXNews.com's Natural Science Center.

Only three other members of the rafetus swinhoei species, also known as Swinhoe's soft-shelled turtle or the Yangtze soft-shelled turtle, are known to exist.

RelatedStories
Elderly Chinese Turtles Mate, but Don't Breed Rare Asian Turtle No Longer Extinct in Wild California Man Gets 6 Months in Prison for Tortoise Smuggling Ring Photo Essays
The World's Rarest Turtle Two are in Chinese zoos and another lives in Ho Hoan Kiem, a lake in downtown Hanoi named for its association with a legendary turtle.

Both Vietnamese turtles are male. An attempt earlier this year to mate the Chinese male, 100, with the sole surviving female, 80, was deemed unsuccessful when the resulting eggs failed to hatch.

According to legend, a magic turtle snatched a sword from the Vietnamese King Le Loi as he boated on the lake and returned it to the gods who had lent it to the king to help him defeat Chinese invaders.

The lake has since been called Ho Hoan Kiem, or the Lake of the Returned Sword.

Fisherman Nguyen Van Toan found the turtle early Wednesday and demanded $1,400 in exchange for its release, arguing that a Hanoi restaurant owner had offered him 30 million Vietnamese dong ($4,800) for the animal.

Turtles are considered a delicacy in Vietnam and other Asian countries.

Toan argued with authorities and conservationists for hours, occasionally picking up a stick to threaten the crowd of about 100 onlookers that gathered in his yard to watch the drama. He finally agreed to accept cash and new nets to replace the ones he ruined capturing the turtle.

"It's a small reward for people who realized that it's important to protect one of the most endangered species in the world," said Nguyen Thi Van Anh, a colleague of Hendrie's from Education for Nature.

Toan said he was satisfied with the outcome.

"I'm very happy the turtle is returning to nature," he said.

[EJ]

I guess I'll throw in my 2 pence...

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jsaQr_CPt8zBCEwZj0wOsLl_U1RwD94MN01O0

I also thought you all might find this interesting... Because of the politics involved this incedent is something that does not do the project well...

The people involved with this lake Rafetus are Doug Hendrie, Tim McCormack and others of the Asian Turtle Conservation Network. Doug used to be WCS’ turtle coordinator. The Chinese breeding program is orchestrated by WCS China. The Chinese Rafetus field survey team works out of CI China, with my support. We all know each other, talk, email and workshop together, coordinate together. All as quietly as possible, so that we avoid attention and the kind of mayhem that unfortunately happened yesterday.

For years the Hanoi city government has been trying to get more turtles to put into Hoan Kiem ‘lake’ (which would condemn them, as Rick pointed out, either getting killed or wasting away in the tank), and the survival of this animal depended on getting conservation in effect before rumors and money started flying. The recent floods in northern VN unfortunately resulted in this.

[sandy]

Thankyou Paul.

I suppose turtle ignorant keepers like me, dont appreciate that river turtles are as rare as they are:(

[EJ]

especially rare considering there are only 2 animals left in existance... hence the importance of them loosing one...

...but you knew that...

Ignorance is not a bad thing... not realizing the fact... is.

I have no problem admitting I'm ignorant in certain areas...

Thankyou Paul.

I suppose turtle ignorant keepers like me, dont appreciate that river turtles are as rare as they are:(

[Bindi]

[quote=Geomyda;232721]Posted in yesterday's edition of The Sun:

A TURTLE bit and broke a chef’s toe as it tried to escape the cooking pot.
The 2ft creature wriggled from the cook’s grip as it was lowered into a vat of boiling water.


It then munched one of his little toes as he tried to scoop it up from the kitchen floor.

The 35-year-old chef, wearing slippers, was taken to hospital in agony.



Good on that turtle, it wasn't wearing a bandana and a mask was it?!

[Geomyda]

Hope to have a further update before Christmas!

[alicia]

i have just signed, got my friend to sign and sent the link to my sister
i will also get my parents to do it this evening
soo that anoth 5 people

alice
xxx

[Geomyda]

i have just signed, got my friend to sign and sent the link to my sister
i will also get my parents to do it this evening
soo that anoth 5 people

alice
xxx
That is great!
An update; The scientific paper commissioned by Tesco has now been reviewed by some European Herpetologists and a very eminent Chinese herpetologist. Their assessment, is that the work is of a very poor standard and appears to have been written by a very inexperienced author. There are very many inaccuracies, and the text contradicts itself numerous times.
Against this of course is a raft of work, by many of the world leading Herpetologists, including some very well respected Chinese scientists!
It is hoped, that the weight of this very credible evidence, coupled with the increasing public pressure, will result in a withdrawal from trade by the Chinese subsidiary of Tesco. At the same time, there is mounting pressure on other Western retailers who are also party to this trade.
Whilst obviously not concluded, the arguments are now very strongly putting the case for a change in marketing strategy for these global investors.

[Geomyda]

http://www.latimes.com/news/science/environment/la-me-turtle27-2008dec27,0,2043276.story

[EJ]

The problem with pushing this cause is that the southern softshells are the equivelent of chelonian rats... they will colonise almost any body of water. They are also easily farmed. The reason they make good news is because of the numbers being exported. It makes for good shock value... here's the problem... take that... a renewable resource away... they will replace it with a less renewable resource.

Don't read anything into this but what it says.

I'm not against protecting animals... I just don't think that this is one of them that needs protecting. It looks like it's a political football.

[Geomyda]

Recommend a good poem- "First known when lost"- by Edward Thomas!
It sounds like you need a good read?

[EJ]

I really don't think there is a risk of the southern softshells being lost here. There is a risk of loosing those chelonians should this resource be removed.

Again... your not going to change a society... why not give them an easily renewable resource to satisfy their needs?

Recommend a good poem- "First known when lost"- by Edward Thomas!
It sounds like you need a good read?

[Geomyda]

Ed, If you are right about the Florida Soft Shell Turtle (Apalone ferox), why is it that so many of the world renowned Herpetologists have all come together to lobby the US government to elevate this, and the other two species of American Soft shell Turtle to at least CITES 11 listing?
It seems to me, that like so many of the World's crepuscular, aquatic and semi aquatic, fresh water Turtle forms which have for many gone quietly un-noticed for eons, have suddenly met their Nemisis.
The phenomenon of the Chinese Food markets, which in the last twenty years have exploded the demand for live turtle flesh, have quite frankly an insatiable appetite for these species. It is only in this time frame, that due to hard, convertable currency, following the latest industrial revolution in China that demand has been on such a large scale! We very well know, that over collection in South Asia, has now spread throughout the world and now frankly, there is no corner of the world that is spared the imminent threat of extinction of these Chelonian species.
Yes, I know that the expansion of Farmed Turtles has ballooned in recent years, but again this is still an industry in its infancy. The production of Turtles for the Pet trade, may have been around for a while, but production on an industrial scale of market ready adults is a completely diffierent. It is in this vein, that the World's leading Turtle experts are united in their condemnation of the current situation and are urging Governments to act before it is too late.

[Geomyda]

http://www.cngui.com/Article/2007/200703/2437.html
Turtle trade in China! Once again, as recent as 2007, obvious flouting of the CITES agreements signed by China! Tesco, should really review their position of trading Live Turtles based on the blatant fact that international regulations signed by China are so flagrantly breached?

[Geomyda]

The Chinese New year starts on the 26th January 09. The Year of the OX. Let us hope that it will be a year of change for the plight of the Turtle and Tortoise!!

http://i528.photobucket.com/albums/dd327/Geomyda/tescoflag.jpg